Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Sonikku » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:32 am

Sappharad wrote:
I've played Mania from start to finish at least 10 times now. I own on it Switch, PS4 and PC and have all emerald save files on all 3 platforms.

Damn. You're the new Sonikku around here. :shock: Your dress is in the mail! :lol:
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:57 am

MiTT3NZ wrote:Um, no, I completed the story and over half of the side-missions. And the Crisis City level was one of the worst. It's not a good game.

Sounds like you've barely touched the game to me. You criticise the design of Crisis City but can't explain why. I also noticed that you neglected talk about Seaside Hill at all, despite my argument that it's a great showcase for the branching paths and platforming that Sonic Generations has to offer.

BlueMue wrote: Just finished Forces fully with all achievements on the Xbox One X.

It was better than I feared it would be but not as good as I might have hoped it could be.
It's definately not a bad game by any means and the hillariously low scores it already gathers are a joke.
Of course it's not the next best 3D game but it was definately more enjoyable than Lost World for me.

They tried to cram everything from the last few years into this one game and while everything works rather well it's struggling a bit to find it's own identity. The levels were not as wowing and instantly memorable than the ones in Unleashed or Generation even though they are designed and crafted quite nicely.

I really like it when the stages in Sonic games can be blasted through in about 2 minutes so I initially enjoyed the short but sweet roller coaster rides. But as the game went on the levels didn't really gain that much in length and especially with the final stages, they feel pretty underwhelming.

The same can be said for the story. I kinda like the idea, design and powers of Infinite but not a whole lot is done with him. Backstory is touched on only slightly in the Shadow Episode and he doesn't really go through any changes. Not a dramatic reveal of who he is by taking off the mask in the end or anything like that. The Phantom Ruby thing is also very shallow. I'd really wish there was more to it than there is. Writing is rather solid.

Gameplay and controlls are solid. There aren't any flaws that I could point out. The controlls can occasionally feel a bit strange though. Speed and momentum can shift quite suddenly and this can ruin precise jumping. Doesn't help that there are 3 different playstyles you constantly switch between.

The base options for the Avatar are pretty limited for sure. They should've added options for the mouth, belly, back spines, tail and so on. You get some more option with the items that unlock, with wich you can give them stripes, patterns and things like Shadow's chest fur but most of the "character" comes from the clothes. I got more fun out of the outfits than I would've ever thought.

Visually it's the best looking Sonic game for sure. Comining the amount of details and the 60fps framerate it easily trumps everything before it. It didn't quite wow me as Unleashed did all those years ago. Nothing truly stands out, neither positive nor negative.

The soundtrack is somewhat of a mixed bag for me. I like the various themes and I really enjoy almost the entire repertoire for the Sonic levels. I also have the guilty pleasure of enjoying the stuff in the Avatar stages, including the cheesy lyrics. For some reason it just works. The music for Classic Sonic though... It is absolutely disappointing. It's not because Mania is only a bunch of weeks old but it sure is the killing blow. For some reason they got the "retro" music worse than Sonic, much worse. The instruments are definately something you might've heard on the Mega Drive, but not in a Sonic game. I was reminded of other games while playing the classic stages. The bigger issue is just that most of the melodies aren't that great. They are all original, not a slight bit of remix, even in GHZ and CPZ but they can get downright annoying and often they don't fit the stage in my opinion. If these were up to the standards of Mania or Generations I'd say the soundtrack would be absolutely awesome, but so it's only mostly great. Still the best part of the game, like so often...

Overall a solid enough game, but nothing to get excited over. The game as a whole is just too shallow. It's once again an entry that isn't using its potential. The developers definately tried with this title but they got lazy again. The difference being that the game isn't running on broken code or barely working designs, there is just not enough of it. I also think that the game is targeted a bit too much at the younger audience, influencing the difficulty and story noticeably. Sonic Adventure 2 (the forever benchmark to me) did these things much better, while even having a rating for all ages.

Bottom line: Wasted potential

Thanks for the review; I'm glad you’re willing to approach Sonic Forces on its own merit. In my opinion the most important things about Sonic Forces is that it puts distance between Lost World and Sonic Boom. I see Sonic Forces has the game that should've been made straight after Sonic Generations, before everything got derailed with those ill-fated Nintendo exclusive. For me Sonic Forces succeeds as a return to form, bringing back the popular boost gameplay that can once again be used for all 3D Sonic games going forward.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby OL » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:59 pm

Kintor wrote:
MiTT3NZ wrote:Um, no, I completed the story and over half of the side-missions. And the Crisis City level was one of the worst. It's not a good game.

Sounds like you've barely touched the game to me. You criticise the design of Crisis City but can't explain why. I also noticed that you neglected talk about Seaside Hill at all, despite my argument that it's a great showcase for the branching paths and platforming that Sonic Generations has to offer.


I'm not one to jump on bandwagons or anything, and I'm not here to criticize any of the Sonic games (haven't played a new one in years), but come on man. If he doesn't like the game, it's a completely valid stance to have.
"If you say you didn't like it, then clearly you've barely touched it."
We're not adolescents here (most of us anyway). Pretty sure we can all have differing stances on things without being all Comic Book Guy about it.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Hyo Razuki » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:00 pm

With Morio Nishimoto and Shun Nakamura at the helm, this just had to suck. I mean Shun Nakamura was a level designer for Sonic Adventure 1 (!) and the director of Sonic 06! Fucking Sonic 06!!! And he's still got a job at Sega!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shun_Nakamura

And Nishimoto has Sonic Colors on his track record, but other than that he's taken key roles in "masterpieces" like Sonic and the Black Night, Sonic and the Secret Rings and Sonic Lost World.

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Morio_Kishimoto

Why not give Christian Whitehead a shot a directing a 3-D Sonic instead? He can't do any worse than those guys. He probably doesn't know jack shit about making a good 3-D Sonic game but guess what? So does Shun Nakamura.

If you send second-rate cooks to the kitchen, you're gonna get second-rate food. Someone at Sega needs to grow a set of balls and fire their asses. And if it costs them a million dollars off pay-off per person. And while they're at it, they might as well axe Iizuka too. Then get a fresh start at Sonic team and start to build up a good studio there.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:22 am

OL wrote: I'm not one to jump on bandwagons or anything, and I'm not here to criticize any of the Sonic games (haven't played a new one in years), but come on man. If he doesn't like the game, it's a completely valid stance to have.
"If you say you didn't like it, then clearly you've barely touched it."
We're not adolescents here (most of us anyway). Pretty sure we can all have differing stances on things without being all Comic Book Guy about it.

I didn't ask for anything unreasonable, only that those wanting to attack Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces do so in good faith. So when the person I'm talking to can't even address the simple points I've raised, unable to elaborate on Crisis City and simply refusing to talk about Seaside Hill, I'm going to call them out on it. Low effort posts shouldn't get a free pass, with the severe lack of information they've provided they might as well not have played the game at all. Give this thread the proper respect it deserves and the quality of the conversation will inevitably improve.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Mr. Frozen » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:44 am

I'm still playing sonic mania. I really love this game. I don't think this is the nostalgia speaking but it is just that these type of Sonic games were the best in the series. It is making me thinking of getting that sonic 3 complete rom and flashing it to an old genesis cartridge I don't care about. probably something I'll do in the next month or two. My only real gripe about the game is the input lag between my xbox one controller and the receiver. The controller lag isn't really that bad, it is just that I am spoiled from all the years of playing on the original hardware. Sonic mania always felt a bit "spongy" using a wireless controller. It's weird I don't feel this lag from any other games, but it is probably because I am so used to playing oldschool sonic games on the Genesis so I can easily notice any difference.. Also the CRT filter isn't as good as the real thing. Flashing that Sonic 3 Complete rom to an old genesis cartridge should be bliss.

As for Sonic Forces? Eh, I'll get around to it.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby MiTT3NZ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:45 am

Elaboration for the fanboy: The layout and branching paths of the levels may have appealed to you, but for me the mechanics nullified any of it for me. I enjoyed the first three, but there was far too much going on visually 95% of the time.

There was also points where the side scroller sections completely broke down and I had to restart the level, as instead of following the spline/pre-determined path, Sonic would instead constantly hit a wall instead of turning.

The challenges weren't fun at all. It's commendable that Sonic Team like to add these in to order replayability, but it'd make more sense to make said challenges enjoyable.

Boss fights were genuinely bad, and this game finally made me understand why people hate the newer characters and voice actors so much (not properly played a home console entry since Sonic Adventure 2... unless you count Sonic 4)

It saddens me that what was my favourite childhood video game series has been reduced to this, and if it's what people consider to be good nowadays then I'd recommend they try different games.

From where I'm sitting it seems that people are so used to the other games being such utter shite that Sonic Generations was just slightly better enough for it to be classed as "good" in comparison. Sonic 4 was a hell of a lot better.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:13 am

MiTT3NZ wrote:Elaboration for the fanboy: The layout and branching paths of the levels may have appealed to you, but for me the mechanics nullified any of it for me. I enjoyed the first three, but there was far too much going on visually 95% of the time.

There was also points where the side scroller sections completely broke down and I had to restart the level, as instead of following the spline/pre-determined path, Sonic would instead constantly hit a wall instead of turning.

The challenges weren't fun at all. It's commendable that Sonic Team like to add these in to order replayability, but it'd make more sense to make said challenges enjoyable.

Boss fights were genuinely bad, and this game finally made me understand why people hate the newer characters and voice actors so much (not properly played a home console entry since Sonic Adventure 2... unless you count Sonic 4)

It saddens me that what was my favourite childhood video game series has been reduced to this, and if it's what people consider to be good nowadays then I'd recommend they try different games.

From where I'm sitting it seems that people are so used to the other games being such utter shite that Sonic Generations was just slightly better enough for it to be classed as "good" in comparison. Sonic 4 was a hell of a lot better.

You call me a fanboy as if that is something to be ashamed of, never mind the fact that you're on the Shenmue Dojo of all places. I make no apologies of that fact that I'm a Sonic fan, throughout this thread I've always taken the time to the views held by Sonic fans, why Sonic Generations is regarded as one of the best Sonic games in recent years and why Sonic Forces will do well financially regardless of a few nasty reviews being posted online.

Regardless, I find your late criticisms of Sonic Generations to be entirely strange. You talk about too much happening visually but just don’t make sense. Sonic games have always had a clear and distinctive art style, so that the player can always immediately figure out what is going on amidst the brightly coloured visuals rushing past on the screen. I mean, if you have trouble seeing Sonic Generations I'd hate to see your reaction to Sonic CD and its surreal landscapes.

As for the gameplay itself, I think that you're being entirely unfair and falling backin into the usual thoughtless rhetoric being used to attack Sonic games. It's a pity that you can't recall exactly which level forced you to restart. I doubt you'd ever able to replicate the glich you've found, especially all versions of the game have been patched since launch over the years. Even so, I think that Sonic Generations does offer a great variety of challenge, especially in those later levels like Seaside Hill and Crisis City, which you still don't want to talk about in any detail.

The boss fights were also good, which again became more apparent as you got further into the game. It was great to see recreation of Sonic Adventure’s final battle against Perfect Chaos; something of a revelation that Sonic no longer needed the Chaos Emeralds to fight Chaos when the normal boost mechanics can do the job just fine. Plus, I really enjoyed the late-game Egg Dragoon boss, which improved upon the original encounter from Sonic Unleashed to provide a fast-paced and complex boss battle.

This is why Sonic Generations remains so popular six years later. It also explains why Sonic Forces was made to follow Sonic Generations gameplay, as this is what Sonic fans actually want to see, in contrast to the failures of Lost World and Sonic Boom.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby MiTT3NZ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:20 pm

The criticisms are late because I got it over the summer.

When I say there's too much going on, I'm talking in terms of distractions in a game that has a heavy emphasis on speed. If your game isn't making it clear where you can and can't go then that is poor design. If there's a noticeable difference between jump acceleration and jump + moving acceleration then that's poor design. If you can't see the rings you have to collect during a pivotal boss fight, guess what? It's poor design.

The breakdown in the "on rails" mechanics happened often enough for me to not be able to recall every single instance. I know that it happened three times at least during Sky Sanctuary, and four or five during the Italian-looking one (Sonic Unleashed level?) That means that despite patches, the glitches are still present.

As I say, I used to be a massive Sonic fan, and it probably came in fifth behind City, Batman, Oasis and Robbie Williams in my "favourite things from childhood" list. If this game is the type of game you like, then fair play, but it doesn't change the fact that they are poorly designed. Nor does my objective opinion detract from your ability to enjoy it.

Regardless, my criticisms are valid. Your counter arguments are that of a whiney kid who wants everyone to like something that you do. And yes, I'm a Shenmue fan. A Shenmue fan that knows both games had major flaws and wouldn't be enjoyed by the majority of people who play video games.

Again, taste is subjective, my criticisms however are not.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby south carmain » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:20 pm

It's funny that Kintor doesn't seem to know the difference between "fanboy" and "fan". I'm pretty sure the majority of us in the thread are sonic fans we just recognise the franchise has gone to shit and SEGA released another mediocre failure.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:43 pm

MiTT3NZ wrote:When I say there's too much going on, I'm talking in terms of distractions in a game that has a heavy emphasis on speed. If your game isn't making it clear where you can and can't go then that is poor design. If there's a noticeable difference between jump acceleration and jump + moving acceleration then that's poor design. If you can't see the rings you have to collect during a pivotal boss fight, guess what? It's poor design.

The breakdown in the "on rails" mechanics happened often enough for me to not be able to recall every single instance. I know that it happened three times at least during Sky Sanctuary, and four or five during the Italian-looking one (Sonic Unleashed level?) That means that despite patches, the glitches are still present.

You're still not answering the points I put forward to explain why you're wrong to criticise Sonic Generations the way that you have. Even now you still refuse to talk about Seaside Hill and Crisis City, the only thing you can offer is vague insinuations about glitches that don't even anything to do with the levels you seemingly can't talk about it. The truth is that Sonic Generations has a strong visual design that makes it easier for players to navigate each level, supporting by a solid and stable engine that has only been improved further with patches. The late-game content like Seaside Hill and Crisis City show that Sonic Generations level design does expand to offer the high quality branching paths and precision platforming that are the answer to your criticisms.

south carmain wrote: It's funny that Kintor doesn't seem to know the difference between "fanboy" and "fan". I'm pretty sure the majority of us in the thread are sonic fans we just recognise the franchise has gone to shit and SEGA released another mediocre failure.

You call people fanboys when you run out of things to say. Just as how you planned to call me a shill to try and discredit my arguments earlier, before I called you out over it. When the only rhetoric you have is personal insults it's probably time to rethink your position. Meanwhile the Sonic fanbase will continue to play and support the development of new 3D Sonic games, regardless of a few unfair reviews. This is how Sonic Unleashed became the foundation of Sonic Generations, which in term informed the creation of Sonic Forces now. I expect there will be more games like Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces going forward, because as I've said before this is what Sonic fans actually want.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby south carmain » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:11 pm

My position is based on hundreds of reviews though while yours is on pure denial. So yeah, there's that too.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby OL » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:56 pm

Kintor wrote:You're still not answering the points I put forward to explain why you're wrong to criticise Sonic Generations the way that you have.


:lol: It's just pure comedy now.
I'm pretty sure there's nothing "wrong" about how he's criticized it. The things he mentioned marred the experience for him. End of story.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:11 am

south carmain wrote: My position is based on hundreds of reviews though while yours is on pure denial. So yeah, there's that too.

My view is based upon personal experience and discussion held with other members of the Sonic fan community. Which is just as valid as any random website or YouTube you'd care to vouch for. The gaming media lost their credibility years ago and their capacity to impact the sales of any given game has only further diminished ever since. The Sonic fanbase didn't care in 2008 when the reviews attacked Sonic Unleashed and they certainly don't care today, nearly a decade later, when the same unfair rhetoric is being against Sonic Forces.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Riku Rose » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:12 am

I like how you always try and use the Sonic community in your arguments like they’re known for being a very critical bunch who only like the finest games. The Sonic fanbase is mostly known for buying crap Sonic games no matter how bad they are and being closeted furries. As soon as the create your own character was announced for Forces everyone knew it was just to please the deviantart furries and not because it’s a good idea.
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