DMC [Reboot]

[OL]

So... empowered without being particularly macho, bitchy, morally bankrupt, or angry?
Elena Fisher.

[Henry Spencer]

Want to know a great character who displayed empowerment without either. Not a game but the first thing that comes to mind. Jadzia Dax. Ok so it's Star Trek. She had weakness but also very tough. The character owned herself. She did not go out of her way to do it either. It was just who she was. She was not afraid to show emotion either. My mind is blank but maybe you can name one in a game.

'Sup.

[Bluecast]

No that falls in line with the Macho thing

[Kenny]

Am I the only one that doesn't limit myself to such standards when it comes to enjoying things like characters?

[Bluecast]

Am I the only one that doesn't limit myself to such standards when it comes to enjoying things like characters?

Um that's not the discussion. The discussion was naming characters of empowerment without certain common cliche traits. Has nothing to do with enjoying them or not. Just tossing names

[Kenny]

And who cares? Great characters can be assholes, passive, active, macho, empowering, and more.

[Bluecast]

Again you missed the point. Whatever.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

And who cares? Great characters can be assholes, passive, active, macho, empowering, and more.

Yea but we're not talking about great characters in general, but what makes 90% of the characters in most games crap. Whats the difference between Vanille and Yuna? Hair Color.
Whats the difference between Nathan Hale, Marcus Phenix, Joseph Capelli and Sev?

Theres lots of tropes and stereotypes that it seems like every game has to hit these days, and its hard finding a really well written character especially in a playable role.

[Kenny]

If a character is not utilized correctly, of course they're going to come off as cliché.

Solid Snake is a typical smoking macho hardass. Why is he so different from all the other smoking macho hardasses? Because he has layers of depth, stemming mostly from his interactions from other characters either equal, better, or weaker than him. Take those key interactions away, and you just have a generic (but very cool looking) character. If you take a character like Vanille and had her go through a massive event that forced the character to do or say something that is contrary to what they were established (and not be out of character), she would've been much more interesting.

So a character being a jackass demon slayer, a whiny crybaby ninja, a grunting flexing macho marine, or a wise-cracking independent woman is only as good as the other characters they interact with and how the story plays with them. If you don't do much and make them one-note, then you better hope they look really cool otherwise you risk getting lost in the shuffle. Vanille would be alot more forgettable if she wasn't designed by Tetsuya Nomura, who's a brilliant character designer. A vast majority of character appeal is how they look, if they look great and standout in someway you crossed the biggest hurdle. Probably why one-note characters like Master Chief are able to have mass appeal too.

[Bluecast]

Mass appeal usually refers to dumbed down.

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

Thats not necessarily true. Kaim for example actually doesn't have a lot of personality in game, he doesn't interact much on an emotional level with any character besides Sara and Gongorra but he's still a great character because of the 10,000 years of Dreams.

A character should be interesting in their own right, they should have a past that defines them and actions that support those definitions. While interaction is important the character should be able to stand alone especially within gameplay.

A prime example is Star Ocean 4 which stuck with a cliched set of characters that had tons of interaction in "Private events" but were way less interesting then the other team that was always a step ahead of you. You only ever see Crowe, Arumat and the others one at a time but even then they're the highlight of the story.

Its not to say a stereotyped character can't be good, Kalas from Baten Kaitos is a great character, and he's a morally bankrupt asshole. Just that most games don't try past "People like bald space marines with cool armor" or "people respond to submissive female healers that have the burden of sacrifice placed on them but attempt to deflect this feeling with false cheer, like a cute asian jesus"

(I really appreciate what you're saying about characters because I've had a hard time balancing what i think is interesting with avoiding stereotypes)

[Kenny]

I disagree. Unless the theme is internal turmoil through interaction of the environment, the character is typically introduced having one personality trait for establishment and if you can twist and contort them through interactions of other characters of another trait, there is potential for change and growth. That's how a decent character can change to a great one. Nathan Drake is an interesting character who spouts off great lines on his own, but is he even better when he's with Sully who's always chastising him and calling him an idiot? I think that's where the game gets more interesting.

If you just have a bunch of cliché characters go around talking about generic things or have generic things happen to them, then yeah it's not going to be interesting. Haven't played any of the Star Ocean games, but if if they have the standard fare formula and they're not deviating from it in any way, then they're not being utilized correctly. They're not doing things that stand out or enhance the story in any kind of way. They're not trying things that haven't been done before with those cliché characters, making them instantly forgettable. They can be saved, but it's a hell of alot harder as opposed to using characters that look and act far apart from typical. My point is a tried-and-true character personality trait doesn't determine likability or whether or not they stand out. It's how you use them and how they look is what's more important.

Mass appeal usually refers to dumbed down.

What's your definition of dumbed down?

Cause what you consider dumbed down can be really cool for someone else. But it's alot easier to stand out when you're doing things that other people are not doing in the mainstream. Elena Fisher works as a character cause in all honesty, what other sarcastic female character she be compared to? Nothing comes to mind for me except for Chloe Frazer in the same game.

But what if Lara Croft was more than tits and ass in short-shorts, played up as wise-cracking and independent from the very beginning? And we had other similar female characters some out all the way to Uncharted? Then Elena Fisher wouldn't be anything special, since she's basically is the same character as Nathan Drake and everyone else. But since that's not the case, she stands out. Lightning has potential to be good cause she was basically a female Cloud. Strong, brooding, independent, capable. But I didn't feel like they used her properly as a character, unlike Cloud she was basically the same character from beginning to end, so she ended up feeling like a caricature of what a strong female character is supposed to be.

[Bluecast]

Movie,Games,Music in order to sell more they often make things simpler. Dumb,easy to understand or follow. Not think much.

[Kenny]

Can you be more specific?

[Stocke]

Just played through DMC1,3 and 4 in the last few months. Missed 2 because I've heard it's awful.

Do i get DmC now or wait until its a fiver in the bargain bin?
I'll be honest, i don't like the look of the characters right now. The actual gameplay might still be fun however. Anyone played it?