Tales Series

(Gaming discussion not related to Shenmue)

Re: Tales Series

Postby AnimeGamer183 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:57 pm

With the other news I have received today, im not gonna cancel my order with amazon, as im in no rush to play Zestiria now. I dont buy guides just to read along while I play, I am a big collector after all and the guides usually have artwork and the hardback ones are pretty to look at and are good shelf pieces as well. You really want to see something that will make you think twice about buying guides again?

I bought the Kingdom Hearts 1.5 HD Guide in October of 2013, strangely enough, this guide came out a couple months after the game actually came out, I suppose the guide missed its market and time frame and flopped and was never re-printed. As it turns out i never even opened it, its sitting on my shelf right now still in the plastic wrap with the KH sticker on it and everything, I spent $20 on it. Now look how much its going for, and ebay prices are similar.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... 735&sr=8-2
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Himuro » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:23 pm

For a new page.

Impressions:

- Humorous and natural cast. So far it's easily the games biggest positive. The localization is pretty spot on, and while I disagree with certain localized translations, such as changing Disciple to Squire, it retains the wit and charm of the Japanese script. The cast feel natural in how they off one another, and each new party member adds to the dynamic. Soreh, is, for all intents and purposes a Tales-esque Monkey D Luffy. He's a goofy moron with a good heart and adventurer spirit. How the writers managed to not make you want to kill him is a miracle, but it somehow works. He sees the best in people and this contrasts with the rest of the cast, notably Mikleo. Mikleo and Soreh's bond is pretty good. They have an interesting and dynamic relationship that reflects a sibling relationship. At first I thought Mikleo was kind of a jerk to Soreh, but he just does playful jabs. So it keeps their relationship interesting. The two of them have a pretty fun relationship and I'm curious to see if they end up dating because at this point, it's pretty gay and adorable. The dialogue has lots of LOL characters moments even at the beginning. So far, Lailah has the best ones. You think she may be a generic 1000 year old uguu wizard angel chick but no, she's actually this goofy, quirky character, which is a nice spin on the type of character someone like her would normally be. I can't wait to see how the rest of the party feeds off her because she's absolutely hilarious. The character interaction in general is pretty great so far, and it's easily the thing most worth looking forward to. If you are someone like me who enjoys Tales games on virtue of the characters, give Zestiria a shot. You won't want any of them to die (at least not yet) which is a pretty good achievement for Tales.

- Really mediocre art direction that I've already gotten into already. The locations are bland and it doesn't feel like a realized world. It's just boring. It sticks out like a sore thumb because the rest of the presentation is top notch.

- If you're on PS3, expect the game to be completely uggo. No anti-alias, frame drops, bland textures. It's not a looker. Which is surprising considering I thought it was the main platform, but it totally looks like a down port.

- So far the battle system is mixed. It's fast but a lot of the options feel outdated. It's fully 3d now and no longer plays like a 2d fighter, which is good or bad depending on your preferences. Like the targeting system, and the fact you have to hold down L2 for free run even though the game is completely 3d now and not on a 2d plane anymore feels tacked on. It feels forced, and makes the controls feel unnatural and obtuse because of that. I'm not finding the new battle system more fun than the old side scroller battle system, either. With the old system, it was at least much easier to juggle. So far I'm just mashing and mashing and mashing. I've got the battle difficulty on Hard. The fast pace of the battle system could also be seen as a negative, in that there's some evasion and defense features here, such as quick stepping and quick evade, but so far they seem pointless because the game is so mashy and there's so much shit going on, and you fight so many enemies, and the screen is crowded with so many special effects that it almost seems impractical to wait for enemies to attack and evade. I'm also not yet convinced that the change to a full 3d system was necessary yet, but I'm open minded. Still, the battle system for what it is, is fun, and the boss fights are cool, especially when against solo human bosses. So far, there are a lot of battle features, but aren't properly utilized or explained. Just mash. Feels like it's trying to create a deep system without executing them well and feels experimental for the sake of being experimental when the old formula and battle system worked just fine.

- Continuing, there a lot of sub-systems, such as an equipment subsystem, that are poorly explained and further obfuscate the gameplay.

- The game stricture could use work. You going from A to B continuously. There's a star that pops up on the map that directs the player to where they're supposed to go which makes the game end up feeling more linear than it probably really is. On the other hand, this could be a blessing because the games overworld and cities are so bland and pointlessly large that you could easily get lost without knowing where to go or what to do. So it's a double-edged sword.

- Music is REALLY good, as expected. Here's a really good sample: [video type="youtube"]HFYBvKdIOCc[/video]

- Cities and locations so far seem big for the sake of being big. World map traversal is boring as hell. World map is divided by zones, in an FFXII way. It doesn't work as well, though, because each area is unidentifiable from the next. Here's hoping the next Tales has a traditional overhead map, because they really have no idea what they're doing on this one.

- A lot of stuff about this game seem like they're shaking up the formula just to shake up the formula. Rather than perfecting the Tales formula Dragon Quest style, they're trying to fit things in that are out of their element, which lead to a lower quality game. It doesn't really excel at anything besides character interaction so far, but it's excellent comfort food.

- Hats

Image

At the same time, it's such a good game it's hard to give too much of a shit, and I'm sure it'll get better. If you're interested in a jrpg and just seem to unload, I'd say it's worth getting for that alone. It's 50 dollars, and despite the flaws, pretty fun.
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Re: Tales Series

Postby AnimeGamer183 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:09 pm

I think Tales has the potential to be a AAA JRPG franchise, I mean its the 3rd most popular console RPG in japan for a reason. I also heard there is alot of back tracking at certain points in Zestiria and the jump to areas feature is turned off at certain points in the game and it turns into a back track fest, does that make it less linear do you think?

And I agree this game does have scale like FFXII or Xenoblade, and correct me if im wrong but it seems like you are saying its just as big as those games just for the sake of being big, but without the top notch art direction/geographical beauty of the locales etc? You are running on an empty area and enemies appear from thin air right? I could see how that might make someone drowsy especially running through like a calm field. Where as in Xenoblade for example its like that, but you are like OH SHIT a 300 story 60+ levels ahead of me wicked looking monster that looks like it may eat my soul if I just look at it the wrong away DONT AGRO IT!!! AVOID AVOID AVOID!!!!! (and they would continue to beat your ass into the ground if you tried to fight them) And the locales look prettier and done better. Maybe its trying to do too much, trying to force being modern a bit too hard. Tales always seems to be a hit or miss, and not just with fans but like technically and game design itself, I feel like it may have to be "wait till next game" before what they perfect what they were trying to implement into this one. But each game there is always something new like this and it never feels like a complete package, or once in a blue moon it does.
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Himuro » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:54 pm

AAA means funding and money, not quality nor popularity. Minecraft is the most popular game of the decade; it's an indie game. Tales isn't the third most popular jrpg.

There's Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy in that order. Below that, Poke'mon, Kingdom Hearts maybe but it hasn't had a main entry in a while, so I'm not sure what its popularity is looking like these days and I'll have to look up its sales or ask an insider. After that, it gets kinda shaky. Tales definitely isn't the top three.

In any case, AAA means funding and money spent. An example of an AAA is GTAV which cost 265 million to make and made a billion dollars. Saying Tales has the ability to sell that much is illogical and delusional. But it's not your fault because most gamers don't really know what AAA actually means. Tales isn't that expensive comparatively. I haven't seen any budget numbers, but I'm going to guess that Tales is more in the area of B, with Vesperia as an exception, which was more in the area of A due to Microsoft's extra budgeting. Another example of an AAA game is Final Fantasy, and Final Fantasy XIII cost 65 million. Tales is never getting a cash load like that. It's not popular enough to.

Namco does an excellent job with Tales budgeting. They get games out fast, they're getting more popular in the west, it sold 300k its first week in Japan. The series is currently healthy.

And I agree this game does have scale like FFXII or Xenoblade, and correct me if im wrong but it seems like you are saying its just as big as those games just for the sake of being big, but without the top notch art direction/geographical beauty of the locales etc? You are running on an empty area and enemies appear from thin air right? I could see how that might make someone drowsy especially running through like a calm field. Where as in Xenoblade for example its like that, but you are like OH SHIT a 300 story 60+ levels ahead of me wicked looking monster that looks like it may eat my soul if I just look at it the wrong away DONT AGRO IT!!! AVOID AVOID AVOID!!!!! (and they would continue to beat your ass into the ground if you tried to fight them) And the locales look prettier and done better. Maybe its trying to do too much, trying to force being modern a bit too hard. Tales always seems to be a hit or miss, and not just with fans but like technically and game design itself, I feel like it may have to be "wait till next game" before what they perfect what they were trying to implement into this one. But each game there is always something new like this and it never feels like a complete package, or once in a blue moon it does.


ToZ is bigger than FF13. It's more comparable to something like FF12 or something. Big large towns, big open field zones. Because Tales lacks the budget, as I said above, compared to FF, it doesn't pull it off nearly as well, and it just looks cheap. The development team is stretching the budget thin by trying to make their game look more "current" by making open-worlds, when they don't have the money to achieve that and still make it a good looking game.

And yes, it's trying to do too much, but it's hard to blame them. They're trying to appeal to more people and shake the series up who say the series is always the same (they're wrong).

It's kind of like Suikoden. Suikoden IV came out and you know Suikoden budgets are low, and while Suikoden IV was the best looking Suiko graphically, it also had a world with virtually nothing in it. Storytelling and game design were stretched thin, and sometimes developers who make games who don't have the budget to match their vision end up overstepping it, and the game suffers. Tales of Zestiria is one such game. From what I've heard, Tales of Xillia is too, but again, I haven't played it.

I think Tales should play to its strengths:

No open-worlds. Have traditional Tales world map.

More this:

Image

Less this:

Image

Syphonia/Abyss/Vesperia's world maps are smaller, and easier to traverse, and have less "detail" but still end up looking better, than the more close up Xillia/Zestiria style. Vesperia keeps it simple. It's not trying to be realistic and the game ends up looking better because of it. Compare it to the Xillia, which is trying to be more realistic, and end sup failing.

Sometimes, simplicity reigns supreme. Not all games need or are capable of pulling off the open-world style map.

Ni no Kuni is another example, albeit, it had a much higher budget being by Level 5 and co-funded by Ghibli.

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Re: Tales Series

Postby AnimeGamer183 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:49 pm

AAA to me, means quality of game, but I can see how you got that confused with talking about budget, that was not the case. I also say that because it seems Tales is getting more popular again, like when I pre-ordered Zestiria on amazon, I actually saw it say it was number 1 for PS4 software at that time. Honestly, I doubt it ever will be AAA, namco is tipping the scale to almost becoming present day Konami and Capcom, they may be next but they have done a bit better job not being complete ass holes. I would wager Tales does get some kind of quality boost over the next few games (hell even zestiria is a step in the right direction, just certain things may not have been implemented quite right), if Tales is ever going to become a "9" or higher average scoring game.

I see what you mean about the latter end of your post. I just think its funny if they develop it one way, its a PSX FF world map style throw back and everyone praises it, but if they try to do something that was popular during the PS2 era its out dated. JRPGs just are what they are anymore, big super serious gaming review sites shit all over Tales games because their reviewers play a more broad spectrum of games and over analyze the technical details and compare it too much to whats current with gaming at large. True enough everyone wants JRPGs and japans games in general to have a bit more production quality, and its a still a mystery as to why they are still making essentially "PS2 games", which I personally dont mind the old styles, but it does make you wonder what could be if JRPG Devs came up with more new and fresh ideas. Save for Square and From Software, the latter of which is basically making Western RPGs anyway.
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Himuro » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:11 pm

Try not to take too much stock from Amazon top sellers. While it's a good sign, jrpg fans like us are niche game fans, and we often buy on week one. Jrpgs rarely have legs. A more telling sign would be if Tales of Zestiria continues to say on top of Amazon PS4 best seller list for weeks at a time. That is a true indicator of popularity and sales.

Similarly, Tales of Zestiria ranked 8 on the UK sales chart this week. That isn't bad, but it's not the best either. It truly shows its niche status. The chart:


1. FIFA 16 (down 40%)
2. Uncharted: The Nathan Drake Collection (down 50%)
3. Destiny: The Taken King (down 22%)
4. LEGO Dimensions (down 17%)
5. Grand Theft Auto V (up 4%)
6. Forza Motorsport 6 (down 16%)
7. Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain (up 15%)
8. Tales of Zestiria
9. LEGO Jurassic World
10. Minecraft: Xbox Edition
11. Minecraft: PlayStation Edition
12. WRC 5
13. Skylanders SuperChargers
14. Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer
15. Mad Max
16. NBA 2K16
17. Rugby World Cup 2015
18. Dragon Quest Heroes: The World Tree’s Woe and the Blight Below
19. Super Mario Maker
20. Disney Infinity 3.0

And as the article mentions:

The highest-charting new release was Tales of Zestiria, which placed in 8th. As for some PlayStation 4-only RPGs, Dragon Quest Heroes debuted in 18th, while Disgaea 5: Alliance of Vengeance was in 27th. Rounding out the new arrivals is WRC 5 in 12th and Wasteland 2: Director’s Cut in 36th.


Japanese rpgs are niche status. In America, most jrpgs are lucky to do more than 200k units. Tales may be growing, but not at the rate you may think or hope. Debuting in the UK at number 8 isn't bad, and it's something to be proud of, but a good sign of its success is how long it stays there. If it rises next week, we may have something. If it drops lower, you'll know that the sales are front loaded and most of the people who want it already bought it, like usual.
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Himuro » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:24 pm

I see what you mean about the latter end of your post. I just think its funny if they develop it one way, its a PSX FF world map style throw back and everyone praises it, but if they try to do something that was popular during the PS2 era its out dated. JRPGs just are what they are anymore, big super serious gaming review sites shit all over Tales games because their reviewers play a more broad spectrum of games and over analyze the technical details and compare it too much to whats current with gaming at large. True enough everyone wants JRPGs and japans games in general to have a bit more production quality, and its a still a mystery as to why they are still making essentially "PS2 games", which I personally dont mind the old styles, but it does make you wonder what could be if JRPG Devs came up with more new and fresh ideas. Save for Square and From Software, the latter of which is basically making Western RPGs anyway.


This isn't true. It depends on the game. X isn't being considered a ps2 game. FF15 isn't. When anyone says that, they're talking about how it looks: textures, detail. The detail in those open world Tales shots do look like higher resolution ps2 screens. It's on a game by game basis.

Japanese developers are considered making ps2 games because of coding and engines. Western devs had the benefit last gen of mostly coming from the pc gaming environment, which gave them experience in making games in that production style. Japanese devs weren't. You'll be seeing a rebound in Japan with the rise of Unreal 4. Past proprietary engines weren't Japan friendly in that they had no Japanese language support, and everything. UE4 does, and it's a major reason why a lot of Japanese developers are using it for their games now, combined with the fact it makes making games a more simplified process. It's easy to develop for. Expect Japan to make a comeback in terms of production this generation because of that. You are already seeing the fruit of it in Dragon Quest XI ps4, Exist Archive, FFVII remake, and even Shenmue 3. If Tales of Besteria is Unreal 4....whooooo boy, watch out. \:D/ Tales of developers could very well achieve what they've been going for with that game due to that. Then again, it's unlikely to be Unreal 4 due to the fact it's also appearing on PS3. So wait for the first next gen exclusive Tales game to see where they go.

Sales-wise, it's also worth considering that Tales of Zestiria is on Steam which is having a monstrous adoption rate of users and growing numbers of Jrpg players. ToZ's sales could very well double due to now being on Steam. So you may get your wish. :D If that happens, the series could now have the budget of Tales of Vesperia on a regular basis. Think A more so than ToZ's B but not necessarily AAA. Still, it's pretty good, eh?
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Himuro » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:48 am

Last night I got to a point where Rose suddenly kicked everything the game had been doing up to that point and spit on it. Not only does she become a Squire, she has the power to Armetize, an ability that, up till now, was unique for Sorey being the Shepherd. Now there's barely any difference between Sorey and Rose. I just met this chick and now I feel like they undermined the entire story they set up. I thought it was getting better, but I ended up turning my PS3 in exhaustion after that boss fight. Talk about awful writing. And the way the game explains it is so hand wavy and banal. The game is perfectly willing to make shit up rather than fit story nearly into its game worlds own rules.


I think I may have to take this game back. I don't have time nor patience for mediocre games. I only play good games but I haven't liked a new game in years. I really gave it a chance, but I don't like this at all or the direction the game is going. I bought it because past Tales games I played had a traditional rpg vibe despite the side scroller battle system and that was what I was looking for when I bought it. I loved Destiny, Symphonia, and Vesperia, so I figured it was a good shot in the dark. I trusted it because Vesperia was my favorite jrpg last console generation. I heard plenty of "Best Tales game since Vesperia" and that perked me up a bit.

Despite putting about 16 hours into the game, it feels like the game just started. It's almost as bad as FF13 in a way. Yet this is the "best" since Vesperia? Talk about a low ceiling.

This game fully convinces me that the jrpg fanbase is hungry for a modern classic. Instead, you've got a large segment of the fanbase playing, beating, and discussing mediocre Tales games.

I can only hope GameStop gives me my money back. This game is everything wrong with the modern jrpg and I could only recommend it to die hard Tales fans.

Think I may need to retreat back into my "modern games are shit and a waste of time, don't buy any of them" mode of thought aside from Street Fighter and mobile games. I was much happier there. I stepped out of it to give MGSV and Tales of Zestiria a shot. Both of them have shit stories, one has amazing gameplay that gets more dull the more you play it. The other is a boring mediocre sleep aid. Both feel unfinished. I think that's the general theme of games these days: unfinished and boring. I quit games as a hobby for multiple reasons but a game like Tales of Zestiria is one of them. Feels like every time I play a new game now I'm disappointed. Not sure why I even bother anymore beyond trying to recapture past magic. This past E3 made me feel so happy that I figured it meant I still loved games, and maybe there was still hope, but every time I play a new game I'm left disappointed. I may have to put off buying a new game again until Shenmue III. Nothing has convinced me gaming isn't a waste of time.
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Raithos » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:45 pm

I don't understand. Because you think something is mediocre everyone else has to agree? If we don't, then we are playing, beating and discussing a mediocre game? That makes no sense at all. Tales fans are QUICK to turn on something they don't like. That's why opinions on each title are so polarized. This isn't the CoD fanbase who buy the same game every year. People think this is one of the best in a long time for good reason. Is Vesperia the last Tales game you played? How exactly does this not have a traditional RPG vibe?

I held off from replying a few days ago when you talked about the battle systems "move to fully 3D" and the targeting system and free run feeling tacked on. Its not fully 3D at all. If it was, there would not be a free run button. The battle system is 95% identical to the ones in past games, new additions like armitization aside. You push up to move forward, down to move back, artes and juggle combos play out the same way they always have, regardless of the camera. The camera just isn't locked into place as much as it was before. Your controlled party members still move on the same 2D plane relative to the enemy they are locked onto.

I think the story is far from "shit" as you put it. I can't debate there though, because if you don't like it that's your opinion. I don't like some stories other people do, but that doesn't make them bad. Or make me think what's wrong with them for liking a mediocre game lol. People just have different opinions.

I can only hope GameStop gives me my money back. This game is everything wrong with the modern jrpg

You just seem to not like change, or games in general from what you have said. If you don't enjoy them don't play them. When games, or anything really, start to feel like a chore or stops bringing you enjoyment that's when its time to move onto something else. Forcing yourself to play games, trying to recapture feelings you had in the past will only make you hate them more.

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Re: Tales Series

Postby Thief » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:54 pm

Raithos wrote:Forcing yourself to play games, trying to recapture feelings you had in the past will only make you hate them more.


I can relate to this. For a little while I couldn't stand playing JRPG's and it frustrated me so incredibly because I had loved them so much in the past. So I distanced myself from them, did other things, and now I don't seem to mind them so much and think I can enjoy them again. Might pick up a tales game, who knows? Played some of Symphonia and that was decently fun.
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Himuro » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:48 pm

Raithos wrote: I don't understand. Because you think something is mediocre everyone else has to agree? If we don't, then we are playing, beating and discussing a mediocre game? That makes no sense at all. Tales fans are QUICK to turn on something they don't like. That's why opinions on each title are so polarized. This isn't the CoD fanbase who buy the same game every year. People think this is one of the best in a long time for good reason. Is Vesperia the last Tales game you played? How exactly does this not have a traditional RPG vibe?

I held off from replying a few days ago when you talked about the battle systems "move to fully 3D" and the targeting system and free run feeling tacked on. Its not fully 3D at all. If it was, there would not be a free run button. The battle system is 95% identical to the ones in past games, new additions like armitization aside. You push up to move forward, down to move back, artes and juggle combos play out the same way they always have, regardless of the camera. The camera just isn't locked into place as much as it was before. Your controlled party members still move on the same 2D plane relative to the enemy they are locked onto.

I think the story is far from "shit" as you put it. I can't debate there though, because if you don't like it that's your opinion. I don't like some stories other people do, but that doesn't make them bad. Or make me think what's wrong with them for liking a mediocre game lol. People just have different opinions.


Who said because I think it's mediocre other people have to agree? I relayed my opinion. You don't have to agree. That's what opinions are for.

I think the story is shit. You don't. Rebut my point then. Don't tell me,"Well I don't think the story is shit." If you can't relay why you like something that shouldn't be my problem.

You just seem to not like change, or games in general from what you have said. If you don't enjoy them don't play them. When games, or anything really, start to feel like a chore or stops bringing you enjoyment that's when its time to move onto something else. Forcing yourself to play games, trying to recapture feelings you had in the past will only make you hate them more.


I'm perfectly fine with change. My favorite Final Fantasy is Final Fantasy VIII. I think Final Fantasy XII is the best FF. My favorite games are Shenmue I and II, which are completely different from other games. I like Animal Crossing. I love series shake ups for the most part. I also love game and genre shake ups. I'm very open minded as a game player.

However, that doesn't necessarily make all changes good or all changes to be equal. Modern jrpgs are highly flawed, and the idea that one can't critique them or that you hate change is bullshit.

And you're right, I'm pretty down on games in general these days, but not always. This year I replayed Chrono Cross and Xenogears. I loved Xenogears and was happy to see it age great, but I never had warm feelings for Chrono Cross. With an open-mind during my replay, I ended up thinking it a better game than Chrono Trigger, and my feelings on it were much different than when I first played it in 2002. So I still like games, but I only have it in my mind to only play quality games or games like Street Fighter which challenge me to become a better person and player, and I feel Tales of Zestiria is not a quality game and not what I'm looking for in an rpg. You're right, forcing yourself to play games when you aren't feeling it is silly, and that's why I've dumped ToZ. However, there are plenty of jrpgs still worth playing. ToZ just isn't one.

I've dumped it, it's a shit game by my metric, but peoples tastes are different and they may think it's great. I don't think so. Whatever. I'm going to play Trails in the Sky instead and wait for Tales of Symphonia HD on Steam next year for a proper Tales game.
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Raithos » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:18 pm

I think the story is shit. You don't. Rebut my point then. Don't tell me,"Well I don't think the story is shit." If you can't relay why you like something that should be my problem.

I clearly said...
I think the story is far from "shit" as you put it. I can't debate there though, because if you don't like it that's your opinion. I don't like some stories other people do, but that doesn't make them bad. Or make me think what's wrong with them for liking a mediocre game lol. People just have different opinions.

Meaning I'm not going to rebut your opinion on a story. Why would I? If you don't like it fine. Doesn't bother me. I commented on your take of the battle system. I am not going to argue with you. If you don't like it great, good luck getting your money back dude.
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Himuro » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:08 pm

Always love it when someone feels personally attacked when someone doesn't like the same toy they like. :-({|=
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Re: Tales Series

Postby Raithos » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:33 pm

Are you just on here to argue with people? When did I say I felt personally attacked? What is with you and posting :-({|= all the time as if you won some imaginary battle?
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Re: Tales Series

Postby AnimeGamer183 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:48 pm

I would just stop responding to each others posts on this matter, agree to disagree, all the back and forth over the last couple pages is bringing the topic down. Sometimes you just gotta know when enough is enough and its not worth taking it any further.
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