Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby shredingskin » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:33 pm

60 from metacritic.

Really, it's not even mediocre, I guess that the average for professional games is around 75.

Go play the demo, it's terrible.

I don't know why they keep pushing the on rails gameplay, it's just boring, the camera angles that change the input, the classic sonic that doesn't control like classic sonic, it's really baffling, at this point no one asks them to do a 10 game like mario, or a evolution of the genre, just do the same shit as generations with modern sonic, those stages were even more entertaining than most of the classic stages.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Thief » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:42 pm

I'm just a little suspicious of trend thought influencing reviewers. The popular opinion is that either Sonic was never good, or that Sonic was only good on the Genesis. Mania comes in and allows for a reinforcement of one of those beliefs, so critics want an angle for their reviews and they lean hard into the "sonic was bad in 3D" trendy response and rejoice his return to the days of Genesis. Of course Forces was going to do poorly after mania, because it's more entertaining (in a stupid meta sense) to make fun of the (already unpopular) 3D sonic that immediately follows the "return to form". I think social influence is too strong to ever rate a 3D sonic game well, regardless of the game's actual quality (not that I think Forces is heaven on earth). I could be wrong, but these are the trends I think I observe from game reviewers. But I mean, social pressure sways individual opinion all the time, on much more important issues than games, so it's not unreasonable to assume that is also happens in games.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby shredingskin » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:46 pm

PLAY THE DEMO.

Really, it's not just trolling kintor for being a fanboy, that's just extra. The game is mediocre at best (at least what I've played).

With modern sonic in generations they did a great job, he didn't feel slippery, the platforming included some well timed jumps, and the enemy placement was ok for doing homings attacks. It's still baffling how much they keep sticking to those onrails segments, they're just not fun. And the changing camera angles to make some stuff look cooler work ok most of the time, but the moment they change the controlling directions you end up dying in a whim just because.

They should just stick to the generations formula, it would be a solid 8 game.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Thief » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:52 pm

I guess now that I think about it, Sonic Colors and Generations were received rather well weren't they?
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby shredingskin » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:07 pm

I played the demo on the switch and I actually loled when I did a homing attack to an enemy that was out of the screen, that shit shouldn't happen in normal games.

They still believe that sonic should be fast because gotta go fast, mania did it great, you have great platforming and some spots when you can go crazy full speed and maybe knowing the layout of the stage jump at the right time to access another segment.

The custom character I played had some weird isometric view, and it felt like an ice level or something, very boring, enemies acting just as barriers, IDK, it was pretty damn bad. Also it was "look around till you find the x to do the homing attack/grappling hook" type of deal, that's not fun. You end up just mashing the homing attack because everything it's linear and seems faster, till you jump to nowhere. They should have bigger inactive window, and give sonic a little vertical pump before being able to do it again (like sonic adventure did). Also most of the homing stuff only works when you're using enemies as platforms, if you just throw enemies at the screen and the only thing you have to do is double tap a button it doesn't translate to anything fun.

It seems like 3d platformers are kinda dead, yoka laylee got bashed pretty hard (but in the same way people are praising a hat in time, so who knows).

I think they just have to pop a new sonic every year, but they should focus on the engine and keep building upon that, the physics is the most important thing in a platformer game, if it doesn't have enough momentum, a readable speed, responsive jumps, it will never work.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby south carmain » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:17 pm

Thief wrote: I guess now that I think about it, Sonic Colors and Generations were received rather well weren't they?

yeah, same for the standard sonic levels in unleashed if I'm not mistaken.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:01 pm

Thief wrote: I guess now that I think about it, Sonic Colors and Generations were received rather well weren't they?

Both Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations also received a lot of unfairly negative reviews. While Sonic Unleashed, which started the Modern Sonic gameplay, got some of the worst reviews of all. It wasn't just about the Werehog, reviews were attacking the modern gameplay from day one and never gave it a chance. However, the actual fan feedback from Sonic Unleashed encouraged Sega to continue with the modern gameplay. It's the same reason why Sega has returned to the modern gameplay now with Sonic Forces, after the failure of Lost World and Sonic Boom, it's what the fans are actually asking for. That's why I think we'll be seeing more games like Sonic Forces in the future, regardless of any middling reviews now, thanks to the continued support of the Sonic fanbase.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby south carmain » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:54 pm

In other words SEGA know that its mainly fanboys that buy sonic at this point so don't care about releasing mediocre games because they'll buy them anyway.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Mr. Frozen » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:04 pm

^I think it is a bit more than that. Mario games are good because they are aimed towards families. I think Sega thinks only children want to play Sonic games so they don't worry about shit like good gameplay because they know kids will play things just because of looks. I am sure that is how Shadow the Hedgehog game into existence.

It has been an extremely ineffective plan since children these days don't give a damn about Sonic.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:45 am

Mr. Frozen wrote: ^I think it is a bit more than that. Mario games are good because they are aimed towards families. I think Sega thinks only children want to play Sonic games so they don't worry about shit like good gameplay because they know kids will play things just because of looks. I am sure that is how Shadow the Hedgehog game into existence.

It has been an extremely ineffective plan since children these days don't give a damn about Sonic.

Actually, the origin of Shadow the Hedgehog is unique compared to any other Sonic. You see, Sega once held an online survey asking people which character (from a list) should get their own game, Shadow won that poll and the rest is history.

As for the future, I think you greatly underestimate the influence of Sonic the Hedgehog in popular culture today. It helps a great deal that Sonic games are readily available across digital platforms. I credit the mobile ports of Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and Sonic CD especially with bringing a whole new generation of games into the fanbase. Not to mention Sonic Dash which has surpassed over 200 million downloads as of last year.

With the continued support of the Sonic fanbase in the months and years ahead Sonic Forces is going to do fine. The gaming media has even less power than they did 2008, all those unfair reviews couldn't stop Sonic Unleashed and they certainly won't slow down Sonic Forces.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:15 am

I still can't believe people actually liked Sonic Generations. Sure, the first three levels were decent, but the mechanics themselves were pretty damn awful. Even Classic Sonic had major issues with the poor jump controls.

It's pretty hilarious to me how all this shite was set in motion by my favourite of the series... Sonic Adventure. What's frustrating though is how getting the games back on track isn't exactly a difficult task, they just seem completely unwilling to consider anything else.

Almost like someone who reckons their way of getting their hand out of a meat grinder is by going all the way through.

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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:20 am

MiTT3NZ wrote:I still can't believe people actually liked Sonic Generations. Sure, the first three levels were decent, but the mechanics themselves were pretty damn awful. Even Classic Sonic had major issues with the poor jump controls.

The way you're saying this, can I assume that you've never finished Sonic Generations? It sounds like you beat Sky Sanctuary Zone and maybe Metal sonic but never got any further? You probably don't want to hear this but the game does start becoming more elaborate once you get passed the Classic era stages. I think that Seaside Hill in particular is a great showcase for the branching paths and precise platforming that Sonic Generations has to offer. No joke, one of my favourite levels in the game is actually Crisis City, that burning city originally from Sonic 06, it's a blast to playthrough and really realises its full potential thanks to the Hedgehog Engine.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:56 am

Um, no, I completed the story and over half of the side-missions. And the Crisis City level was one of the worst. It's not a good game.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Sappharad » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:30 pm

Kintor wrote: If you want a good place to grind for Chaos Emeralds then try Oil Ocean Zone Act 1.

Old at this point, I know, but...
Press Garden 1 is even easier. There's that part at the very beginning where you have to break a flower looking thing to make the bridge expand, as soon as you get out of there go down then left for a ring.

I've played Mania from start to finish at least 10 times now. I own on it Switch, PS4 and PC and have all emerald save files on all 3 platforms. After about the 6th playthrough, I was able to have all of the emeralds around Studiopolis but my first 3 times through I always had to go back after being it to get them all. Chemical Plant 1 is good for 2 big rings in about a minute if you're taking the top path that avoids the rising water section, but that's not so easy to explain in text. There are plenty of YouTube videos that show the ring locations now though.
Truck_1_0_1_ wrote:
KidMarine wrote: Jesus fucking christ the
Oil Ocean Act 2
boss is nigh-on impossible with Knuckles.

I know I'm late here lol, but try beating Robotnik in Marble Garden in Sonic 3, with Tails.

I find that much tougher than someone who can't jump high enough, but that's just me.

I agree. I found that boss as Knuckles to be the most difficult one in the game, especially because if you get hit you can't really collect your rings again. I had 25+ lives prior to that boss and burned through over 20 on my first time playing that. In later playthroughs it wasn't as much of an issue because I always had the emeralds by that point and could just go super for the boss.


In short, I think Mania is a great game. Forces looked bad to me as soon as they started showing gameplay. The custom character thing sounded like they were trying to dumb down the entire game, and the fact that they recycled Green Hill yet again was not a positive sign. I didn't really pay much attention to it, and it sounds like that was a good idea. I'll probably pick it up when it's cheap, since it at least does sound better than the Sonic Boom games which I completely ignored.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby BlueMue » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:24 pm

Just finished Forces fully with all achievements on the Xbox One X.

It was better than I feared it would be but not as good as I might have hoped it could be.
It's definately not a bad game by any means and the hillariously low scores it already gathers are a joke.
Of course it's not the next best 3D game but it was definately more enjoyable than Lost World for me.

They tried to cram everything from the last few years into this one game and while everything works rather well it's struggling a bit to find it's own identity. The levels were not as wowing and instantly memorable than the ones in Unleashed or Generation even though they are designed and crafted quite nicely.

I really like it when the stages in Sonic games can be blasted through in about 2 minutes so I initially enjoyed the short but sweet roller coaster rides. But as the game went on the levels didn't really gain that much in length and especially with the final stages, they feel pretty underwhelming.

The same can be said for the story. I kinda like the idea, design and powers of Infinite but not a whole lot is done with him. Backstory is touched on only slightly in the Shadow Episode and he doesn't really go through any changes. Not a dramatic reveal of who he is by taking off the mask in the end or anything like that. The Phantom Ruby thing is also very shallow. I'd really wish there was more to it than there is. Writing is rather solid.

Gameplay and controlls are solid. There aren't any flaws that I could point out. The controlls can occasionally feel a bit strange though. Speed and momentum can shift quite suddenly and this can ruin precise jumping. Doesn't help that there are 3 different playstyles you constantly switch between.

The base options for the Avatar are pretty limited for sure. They should've added options for the mouth, belly, back spines, tail and so on. You get some more option with the items that unlock, with wich you can give them stripes, patterns and things like Shadow's chest fur but most of the "character" comes from the clothes. I got more fun out of the outfits than I would've ever thought.

Visually it's the best looking Sonic game for sure. Combining the amount of details and the 60fps framerate it easily trumps everything before it. It didn't quite wow me as Unleashed did all those years ago. Nothing truly stands out, neither positive nor negative.

The soundtrack is somewhat of a mixed bag for me. I like the various themes and I really enjoy almost the entire repertoire for the Sonic levels. I also have the guilty pleasure of enjoying the stuff in the Avatar stages, including the cheesy lyrics. For some reason it just works. The music for Classic Sonic though... It is absolutely disappointing. It's not because Mania is only a bunch of weeks old but it sure is the killing blow. For some reason they got the "retro" music worse than Sonic 4, much worse. The instruments are definately something you might've heard on the Mega Drive, but not in a Sonic game. I was reminded of other games while playing the classic stages. The bigger issue is just that most of the melodies aren't that great. They are all original, not a slight bit of remix, even in GHZ and CPZ but they can get downright annoying and often they don't fit the stage in my opinion. If these were up to the standards of Mania or Generations I'd say the soundtrack would be absolutely awesome, but so it's "only" mostly great. Still the best part of the game, like so often...

Overall a solid enough game, but nothing to get excited over. The game as a whole is just too shallow. It's once again an entry that isn't using its potential. The developers definately tried with this title but they got lazy again. The difference being that the game isn't running on broken code or barely working concepts, there is just not enough of it. I also think that the game is targeted a bit too much at the younger audience, influencing the difficulty and story noticeably. Sonic Adventure 2 (the forever benchmark to me) did these things much better, while even getting a rating for all ages.

Bottom line: Wasted potential
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