Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:51 pm

Riku Rose wrote: I liked Generations and haven’t bashed it.

You say that you aren't attacking Sonic Generations but here you are trying to justify MiTT3NZ's post and others, while emulating that same boring rhetoric being used against the modern Sonic gameplay ever since Sonic Unleashed. Then to top it all off you continue to insult me and Sonic fans in general, never actually putting forward any arguments of your own. I don't think you have any intention of respecting Sonic Generations or Sonic Forces on their own merit. Still, if you really did like something about Sonic Generations then you should understand why Sonic Forces is continuing with the modern gameplay. Lost World and Sonic Boom didn't follow Sonic Generation's example, for that reason they failed. Whereas Sonic Forces is the true successor to Sonic Generations and that's why it succeeds as a game.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby south carmain » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:08 pm

Perhaps not all sonic fanboys fit the stereotype but Kintor certainly does. You sound like you're defending your mother or wife.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby MiTT3NZ » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:30 pm

Your arguments in favour of these games is that you enjoy the level design. My argument is that I don't think Generations is a good game because the mechanics are poorly designed... amongst a few other things.

If you want me to go in depth it'd require drawing diagrams and calculating trajectories, comparing the acceleration from the running function to the jumping function, attempting to recreate bugs, showing you a video of the final boss battle and marking out how nigh on impossible it is to see the rings coming, create a few slide show presentations on good design, bad design, and then drawing up a table on which category every aspect of Sonic Generations fits into, and quite frankly... I don't actually care that much to do it.

I'm happy to debate others on here. It's something I enjoy doing, but you seem to enjoy repeating yourself and asking the same of others. May I suggest just re-reading the posts instead? Nothing bears the originals!

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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Riku Rose » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:57 pm

Riku Rose wrote:
Riku Rose wrote:
Riku Rose wrote: But yet again I ask why is it ok for Sonic fans to judge Lost Worlds and Boom on a trailer but you said Mittens can’t judge Generations because you didn’t believe he beat it?
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:38 am

MiTT3NZ wrote: If you want me to go in depth it'd require drawing diagrams and calculating trajectories, comparing the acceleration from the running function to the jumping function, attempting to recreate bugs, showing you a video of the final boss battle and marking out how nigh on impossible it is to see the rings coming, create a few slide show presentations on good design, bad design, and then drawing up a table on which category every aspect of Sonic Generations fits into, and quite frankly... I don't actually care that much to do it.

Now you're just trying to confuse the question, by claiming it would too hard and too much effort for you to honestly discuss Sonic Generations. Nothing could be further from the truth, if you’d just take the time to consider the arguments that I’ve already put forward. Even now you refuse to talk about Seaside Hill at all, once I pointed out how it’s a great showcase of the branching paths and precise platforming. You also refuse to elaborate on why criticise Crisis City, when I pointed out it’s another great late game level. As it stands all you have to offer is more deflection and no arguments of substance.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby OL » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:18 am

Wow.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby shredingskin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:04 am

You don't have any arguments, you only go "Sanic go fast, bretty good", and some furry shit. Get your act together, "precise platforming" doesn't exists anywhere in sonic games and you saying that doesn't make it so.

Did you talk to your therapist about sonic ?
How many hotdogs a day you eat ?

You shold man up, and play mario odyssey and drink nice soylent, that's what REAL men do.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Sonikku » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:37 am

shredingskin wrote:
Did you talk to your therapist about sonic ?
How many hotdogs a day you eat ?

Don't you dare judge me. [-X
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby MiTT3NZ » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:31 am

Kintor wrote:Even now you refuse to talk about Seaside Hill at all, once I pointed out how it’s a great showcase of the branching paths and precise platforming.


Branching paths in this game don't actually work too well because of speed, momentum, and the camera. It has little to do with skill and more to do with luck when playing a level for the first time.

t'd take abnormal reaction times and ridiculous foresight to take most of them on the first attempt, as it often boils down to "if you jump at just the right time at the right speed you'll reach the quick route up here". Due to the camera and the amount of background scenery that uses the same mesh/texture combination as terrain that you can traverse then it's not something you can do first time round. It's not Dark Souls and it's not Mario.

Sure, platforming in Sonic is about speed and anticipation, but the overall aesthetics and odd choices for values in the mechanics (as I keep coming back to) lend themselves better to a straight-forward left-to-right blitz platformer.

The other two paths are "keep along this path and you'll get to the goal, but it'll be difficult to get an S rating" (IE standard) and "looks like you fucked that bit up, here's some bottomless pits and spikes". That is lazy design.

Mentioning precise platforming also becomes negligible when your mechanics don't lend themselves well to precise platforming. Again, I come back to controls. They're loose. Switching between running acceleration and jumping acceleration/movement is jarring. I don't recall ever playing a Sonic game with this problem. It was very noticeable.

Let's take Skyrim for example. If it required precise blows from your weapon to defeat an enemy then, given the actual combat system, it would be a stupid mechanic, as they wouldn't work well together. Having a set goal and a system thats function does not lend itself well to the intended purpose is - again - poor design.

I'm willing to make a concession though. Perhaps, on their own, the mechanics and level design are good. If they don't go well together though then it makes for a poor game. Is this down to miscommunication or a breakdown in project management? Doubtful. It was a game rushed out the door because of SEGA's insistence on celebrating Sonic's anniversary every five fucking years since SA2.

And if you think I'm gonna remember all of the levels by name then you're mad rather than just an idiot.



Kintor wrote:You also refuse to elaborate on why criticise Crisis City, when I pointed out it’s another great late game level.


You pointed out it's a great late game level. Do you care to elaborate? I seem to recall an atrocious colour pallette with an over reliance on fire effects to disorient the player and extremely heavy use of falling platforms.

I may be wrong, but isn't this one of the wisp levels too? Yet another poor choice, as they completely take you out of the game. If you set a precedent on how it's supposed to be played, only to bring in three new respective level-specific mechanics at the end of the game, then - again - *pauses for the crowd to answer* ...oor design, yes!

If they'd appeared earlier on and the game was based around having a specific unique type of power up per level, then yes, I could see it being an appealing aspect, as that would dictate the type of levels to expect. That would be the identity of the game. But it's not.


Kintor wrote:As it stands all you have to offer is more deflection and no arguments of substance.


I've just addressed your points and gone into detail about each one. Can you say or do the same? Or are you going to whine about Sonic fans being bashed and again mention branching paths in Seaside what the fuck ever and your fantastic in depth point that "you think Crisis City is a great endgame level"?
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby south carmain » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:32 am

shredingskin wrote: You don't have any arguments, you only go "Sanic go fast, bretty good", and some furry shit. Get your act together, "precise platforming" doesn't exists anywhere in sonic games and you saying that doesn't make it so.

Did you talk to your therapist about sonic ?
How many hotdogs a day you eat ?

You shold man up, and play mario odyssey and drink nice soylent, that's what REAL men do.

Don't forget that the gaming media and general public are biased but not the sonic fanbase.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:19 am

MiTT3NZ wrote: And if you think I'm gonna remember all of the levels by name then you're mad rather than just an idiot.

Huh, well this has to be the most bizarre criticism of Sonic Generations that I've ever seen in the last six years. You don't even have to remember any new names, since all the levels of Sonic Generations are reimagined designs from earlier Sonic games. Seaside Hill was originally the first level of Sonic Heroes; next to Green Hill Zone it's the most common old level theme to ever appear in new Sonic games. Surely remembering Seaside Hill shouldn't be too hard for you, if you've ever so much as played a new Sonic game since 2003

MiTT3NZ wrote: I've just addressed your points and gone into detail about each one. Can you say or do the same? Or are you going to whine about Sonic fans being bashed and again mention branching paths in Seaside what the fuck ever and your fantastic in depth point that "you think Crisis City is a great endgame level"?

Of course you're not always going to spot a branching path on the first playthrough, let alone be able to react in time to access that route. The point of Sonic games are replay value, in the case of Sonic Generations the red rings in each level are there to encourage you to come to back completed levels again and again. As a matter of practicality this allows the player to perfect their abilities, finding new paths as they push for the best time and highest score possible. This was true of the classic games and it’s true of Sonic Generations as well, only those player who keep replaying the game over the months and years after launch will be able to get the most out of the intricate level design and fast-paced gameplay.

To that end, Seaside Hill is a great example because it marks the point where Sonic Generations level design really opens and it trusts the player to explore each level more dynamically without getting themselves killed in the process. Hence it’s quite easy to identify new routes and branching in Seaside Hill, the decidedly geometric design of Sonic Heroes is carried over into this level of Sonic Generations allowing multiple routes be seen side by side as you race across the tight platforms. Crisis City takes this a step further, you’re still running around tight spaces but there is a lot of vertical height to Crisis City, plenty of hidden paths to explore if you’re quick enough to find them before you miss the opportunity to go that way.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby MiTT3NZ » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:29 am

So the only two points you're responding to are things I've already covered?

MiTT3NZ wrote:It's commendable that Sonic Team like to add these in to order replayability, but it'd make more sense to make said challenges enjoyable.


MiTT3NZ wrote:(not properly played a home console entry since Sonic Adventure 2... unless you count Sonic 4)


EDIT: In response to the exploration aspect, again it comes down to the identity of the games. Older Sonic entries were nowhere near as fast as Generations and the other new ones seem to be. They were faster than most others at the time, sure, but they weren't simply "go from left to right, though that loop, onto that floating platform, avoid the spikes, and you're there!"

Earlier Sonic games were traditional platformers that required you to slow down, to think about it, to search for something in some cases. Sure, Green Hill Zone's always been like that, but Sonic games - while fast - were not like they are today.

Now it's a case of "collect rings to boost as modern Sonic" and "go forward, avoid hazards, don't get hit" as classic Sonic.

Again, I keep going back to it: the level design and the mechanics simply don't go together. I'm sure the levels would've been great in Sonic Advance or summat, but not here.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby Kintor » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:01 am

MiTT3NZ wrote:EDIT: In response to the exploration aspect, again it comes down to the identity of the games. Older Sonic entries were nowhere near as fast as Generations and the other new ones seem to be. They were faster than most others at the time, sure, but they weren't simply "go from left to right, though that loop, onto that floating platform, avoid the spikes, and you're there!"

Earlier Sonic games were traditional platformers that required you to slow down, to think about it, to search for something in some cases. Sure, Green Hill Zone's always been like that, but Sonic games - while fast - were not like they are today.

Now it's a case of "collect rings to boost as modern Sonic" and "go forward, avoid hazards, don't get hit" as classic Sonic.

Again, I keep going back to it: the level design and the mechanics simply don't go together. I'm sure the levels would've been great in Sonic Advance or summat, but not here.

I don’t see why you should have a problem with Sonic Generations or any other modern Sonic game like it. More powerful hardware means that the speed in Sonic games can be pushed further than ever before, as it should be. Speed has always been the main selling point in Sonic games, ever since the classic era. Once you master a Sonic game, by understanding the gameplay mechanics and becoming familiar with specific level designs, you should be able to do all that precise platforming and careful navigation without ever slowing down. The best Sonic classic levels do this perfectly; you are always in motion and never have more than a few microseconds to think about your next move.

Sonic Generations is designed exactly the same way. Using the boost recklessly on first playthrough is just going to get you killed. It’s only after replaying the level many times and becoming familiar with the gameplay mechanics that you will be able to use the boost from start to finish without making a mistake. The boost enjoy gets used up very quickly, one wrong move and that energy will go away, becoming potentially difficult to regain again midlevel. Collecting rings and destroying enemies to gain more boost energy is the reward for being able to master each level. Sonic Forces take this further, as rings no longer provide boost energy, making the decision to use the boost or not more tactical once you’ve built up enough energy.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby south carmain » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:45 pm

Give it up, Kintor. You've lost the argument and your franchise sucks. Just buy a switch with Mario already.
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Re: Sonic Forces & Sonic Mania

Postby BlueMue » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:20 pm

shredingskin wrote:You shold man up, and play mario odyssey and drink nice soylent, that's what REAL men do.


south carmain wrote:Just buy a switch with Mario already.


This is the kind of stuff that gets even me annoyed. Why always the comparison with Mario?
Sonic is it's own unique thing and one series cannot be used as a substitute for the other. I think this is also one of the reasons that Sonic games generally get trashed. People have Mario on their minds and expect a Sonic game to be just like that. And then the copycat mentality of todays internet sets in and when one person says "it sucks" everyone copies it blindly.

Seriously, we're in such a twisted world. Everything Sonic tries gets instantly ridiculed and everything Mario does is automatically praised to the heavens. This is before looking deeper into the games, and yes that reveals that Mario has the better quality and it's concepts just work flawlessly. The point is, that it's just unfair.

Anyway, this talk about the series as a whole is getting nowhere and not what this thread is meant for.
So please try to steer it back into the direction of the two games in the title if you can.

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