Star Wars: The Force Awakens-Full SPOILER discussion inside.

[KiBa]

^ Yeah, maybe the story will be a galaxy-wide manhunt for the missing celibate Luke Skywalker to Force him to procreate.

[Kenny]

Jokes aside, I hope none of that stuff comes true.

Vader being Luke's dad is kind of a stretch already. Leia being Luke's sister and Vader's daughter is even more of a stretch. For something as gargantuan and vast as a galaxy, everyone seems to know everyone very well.

But then again: the Force.

Kenny, this post is just ridiculous. What do you mean them all being family is a stretch? Have you forgotten Episodes 1-3 that set up the whole situation? How could they not be family? I'm really scratching my head about that one. If you take away the family aspect down the skywalker bloodline the whole story doesnt make sense.

And that being said, I think like the past 6 films, episode 7 will continue to follow the skywalker blood line and probably will even be its main focus.

I don't think you understand. I'm not talking about the setup in Eps 1-3, it was completely expected that we would follow Anakin as he became Darth Vader. As far as I remember, all the key characters were completely unrelated to each other by blood.

What I'm talking about is Luke who happens to get the droid that has the princess' message, who happens to know who Obiwan is (who also happens to know Vader and also happens to reside on the same planet as Luke), who happens to destroy the Death Star, who happens to be Vader's kid...also happens to be the brother of the princess he saved in the first place.

Honestly, if you don't feel like that's a stretch, I don't know what to tell you. Luckily it seemed to have worked out for the most part because there were many other things happening that kept the experience fun and fresh (it really helped they were doing so many groundbreaking things at the time). Plus after I posted all that, I just remembered the one key thing that is also the ultimate cop out: the Force. It binds and ties things together, so that alone can be used to explain why all the Force sensitive people had such a gravitational pull on one other.

But once you apply that to non-Force sensitive people, it just becomes too much of a coincidence (ie-- Kid Boba Fett's backstory). When you look at Episode 4 in the context that everyone is supposed to be completely unrelated (as it was originally intended), it makes for a stronger more believable film. It's a band of strangers that come together to vanquish evil for the cause. Like Seven Samurai and the like (Lucas loved Kurosawa films too), I personally love the shit out of those stories. I love the idea of completely different characters that are forced or willing to work together for the greater good and I try and incorporate that in my own stories as much as possible.

I notice i'm rambling a shit ton in here, but i'll say i'm very skeptical of that kind of storytelling but I hope it works out. I think Rey being related to Solo, Organa, or Skywalker is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.

[AnimeGamer183]

You are forgetting one very important aspect Kenny. Luke is the prophesized one, I also like how the son of the person they THOUGHT was going to be "the one" (in anakin) is the actualy prophet. I find it no surprise that all the pieces fell into place the way they did when you take that into consideration, goin all the way back to Anakins mother mysteriously getting pregnant THAT is what ultimately set the stage for Luke to be the person of legends.

Radical things happen when prophecies are involved, the universe can work in mysterious ways, I dont only think its not a stretch at all, I think its perfectly realistic the way it is and I dont think Luke could have mustered the resolve to save the universe and revive the Jedi if everything hadnt happened the way it did. It has everything to do with themes like destiny and resolve, luke not succumbing to the dark side when every other person before him would have succumb, their were hyrbrid jedi/sith or neutral if you will, but luke was always jedi and nothing else, even when being tempted in front of the sith lord himself palpatine.

I think Star Wars is one of the best stories about Destiny in luke, and despite there being crappy character portrayals and writing in ep1-3, I think the core story is perfectly fine in them, just not executed properly. And the back story that builds up to where luke takes main stage works, (woman gets mysteriously pregnant and the child found on a desolate planet where some jedi happened to crash land, and take the child with them to train when discovered he has special talents and he ultimately becomes a very significant character just not the prophet they thought, and it turns out its that persons son instead, sounds like destiny at work to me) just Ep1-3 story doesnt do it in a way thats 3 2 hour entertaining movies like the OT.

[AnimeGamer183]

He seems more like a Han Solo useful-but-not-Force-Sensitive kind of guy. And he does use a lightsaber at one point, but then again so did Han. As for my theory on who the force sensitive is, I'll just leave this here.

Just noticed someone made a snow man of the new rolly droid on the left there lol

[OL]

I think Kenny's point is that, despite the movies being fun and all, the justifications for everything happening are pretty weak. It basically boils down to "You want to know why? Because magic, that's why." It's quick and easy and doesn't require any real-world justification.

--[As a quick aside, that's also the main reason I hate the Harry Potter series, if I'm totally honest. Hey, got a story problem that needs solving? Here's a previously-unmentioned spell or magic artifact that can conveniently fix everything with no real explanation. And we'll forget all about it afterward.
Yeah, that's... that's some strong writing.]--

Not to mention that Episodes 1-3 weren't even written (nor even halfway-conceptualized) when the original trilogy came out, so trying to justify the events of the original trilogy with eps. 1-3 is kind of weak in and of itself. Last I heard, even the original trilogy didn't start out with the idea that Vader would end up being Luke's father. They threw that in there when they started working on Empire. So it's really just a long series of weird retcons and developments yanked out of Lucas's ass that luckily fit together well enough to hold up as a story. I enjoy Star Wars as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to try to convince anyone that it's a particularly good example of quality story composition.

[Kenny]

That's pretty much why I think ANH is the best Star Wars film because it stands perfectly fine on its own. There are no weird coincidences or anything like that, just a good ol' fashioned Space Fantasy story with a kick ass finale. The book Splinter of the Mind's Eye was meant to be the sequel to ANH even if it had been a horrific failure. In there, Vader was not his Father and was really meant to be an off-and-on again typical bad guy (which is why his ship tailspins out of the Death Star Trench when Solo fucked up his shit, he was never meant to die in it).

Like OL said, all that "prophecy" bullshit was all conjured up by the prequels. None of that shit was even remotely insinuated in the OT. Luke was just a farm boy who wanted to be a pilot, who ended up going on this terrific journey purely by chance to save a princess, and ends up taking care of one of the greatest atrocities in the galaxy. You can call it fulfilling a prophecy or the Emperor placing a bet with Vader telling him "I bet that dirty fuckin' nerf herder won't destroy us all" and Vader going "ooooh, you're on!".

Any ideas Lucas had before writing what would become ANH were purely episodic and self-contained in nature. There was never any grand master plan to tie everything together, it was just a series of unrelated events that would be carried onto its grand conclusion--destroying the Empire. That's how those Flash Gordon serials were like. In fact, he admitted had he had foresight that Star Wars was gonna be a big hit, he would've never ended the first film with the destruction of the Death Star. He would've saved that shit for the final film. And who to blame him? It's the ultimate conclusion for a Space Opera which is why they repeated it in ROTJ (and in some ways they did it better).

But things change over time. The original idea he had for episodes 7-9 were gonna be about the Jedi coming back together and mingling with one another. Focus on how they would rebuild what the Empire destroyed. Not really terribly exciting stuff, as far as I'm concerned, but he really didn't have a good idea on how to follow up with it. He just wanted it to be like those old serials somehow, campy and cheesy. Probably lots of talking and shit.

[AnimeGamer183]

Oh lord, now yall are thinking in the terms that Ep 1-3 and 4-6 are separate. I realize the stories changed from film to film during production about what the next one will be and what will happen and who will be whos father and all that good shit. But using that as justification just to say it helps drives what ever point you are trying to make is just shallow.

If you give any one all 6 films and tell them to watch them in succession (which im sure alot of people are doing right now) what do you think they will take from it? We can debate the woulda coulda shoulda's of the production of each film til we're blue in the face, but it doesnt change the fact that thats what the story line is at this point in time, and being relevant with whats happening now and not considering what could have happened during the initials talks of the prequels or ESB and RotJ, thats just silly. Also, to keep an open mind, some people think that ep7-9 wont really aknowledge the prequels anyway.

I am going to go ahead and go on record and say that Star Wars is in no way any sort of literary or story telling gold, but for what it is, its definitely better than alot of other stuff out there, and even the prequels despite their poor execution. And when considering the collective of whats currently known as of right now (ep1-6) its a pretty crazy and interesting story about destiny in another world with twists and turns that goes down at least one generation (hopefully ep7 expands on that).

[Kenny]

How is it shallow? It's evidence based on documentation and observation. It IS a stretch even if you factor "prophecies" and "the Force" into it. In all other forms of media, it'd just be bad storytelling but we give SW a free pass cause it's too cool to not enjoy. Yoda could've been Luke's biological Uncle and I still would've reluctantly accepted it in the OT because of how good everything else is.

And retconning is hardly a justification for "making shit up on the go". Kojima is also incredibly guilty of this as well which is why the Solid series continually suffers from each installment, cheapening the integrity of the original. I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. That coincidences are just fine? All the key characters should be just related to each other because it's tradition at this point? Geez, let's just say Palpatine was Luke's long lost cousin while we're at it.

[AnimeGamer183]

Like OL said, all that "prophecy" bullshit was all conjured up by the prequels. None of that shit was even remotely insinuated in the OT.

Yes it does. Why do you think they keep encouraging Luke to do things to fulfill his destiny, and "bring balance to the force" which is the exactly line they use when they talk about the prophecy of who will "bring balance to the force" in the prequels, insinuating that Luke could bring balance to the force. Even the scene with ghost obi-wan and yoda and the whole "there is another" in Empire they reference the prophecy. Come on guys (Kenny and OL)... if you are gonna sit here and debate this you should know this stuff. I am actually pretty darn disappointed in the both of you regarding this. Maybe you guys need to watch them again as a refresher because some of what you are saying is just plain incorrect...

How is it shallow? It's evidence based on documentation and observation. It IS a stretch even if you factor "prophecies" and "the Force" into it. In all other forms of media, it'd just be bad storytelling but we give SW a free pass cause it's too cool to not enjoy. Yoda could've been Luke's biological Uncle and I still would've reluctantly accepted it in the OT because of how good everything else is.

And retconning is hardly a justification for "making shit up on the go". Kojima is also incredibly guilty of this as well which is why the Solid series continually suffers from each installment, cheapening the integrity of the original. I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. That coincidences are just fine? All the key characters should be just related to each other because it's tradition at this point? Geez, let's just say Palpatine was Luke's long lost cousin while we're at it.

Because it takes place "in a galaxy far far away" with its own rules different from the likes of our own with the force. Yalls biggest mistake here is your are trying to compare the world of star wars to that of our own world which takes half the fun and magic out of the films. Its like saying "That would never happen!" yeah, maybe not in our world but guess what? This is the world of star wars, its all part of the charm, the lore, and aspects of what makes the star wars universe what it is, it gives it its own individuality and what has made star wars a smash hit franchise adored by millions. The wonder about what it would be like in another galaxy, what kind of aspects (like god and the force) could be different, the mere setting of star wars really tickles the imagination of what could be and its all part of the collective reason so many people love it.

Also makes that little MGS comparison irrelevant (although these particular cases do show how prequels and bouncing around from the past to the present to the future could be done better). Stop being so damn closed minded about all this PLEASE!!! Im not sure why YOU are arguing anymore, dont give me that.

[Yokosuka Martian]

phpBB [video]

new trailer! Thougts? It sounds like Lupita Nyongo's character . Think she'll be like a Yoda-type character in the movie?

[KiBa]

Yalls biggest mistake here is your are trying to compare the world of star wars to that of our own world which takes half the fun and magic out of the films. Its like saying "That would never happen!" yeah, maybe not in our world

You're all wrong. There are infinitely more and bigger coincidences in the real world than the tiny chain of 3 or 4 minor surprises that is Star Wars. Nothing is a stretch. Nothing can be. Life is either absurd, or genius.

[Thief]

Everything that has ever occurred is a coincidence.

[OL]

@AG, I get what you're saying, and basically I agree. The whole shebang is fun and entertaining and is pretty much a prime example of the "magic of film" and all that. Don't get me wrong, that's all fine. There's nothing wrong with enjoying it, and I'm not personally saying that I don't. Star Wars is entertaining as hell. I still personally think Indiana Jones and Back to the Future are even more entertaining, but that's taking nothing away from Star Wars' legacy as a classic.
All I'm saying is that, knowing what we do about how everything came together, there's just no way to claim it as a particularly good example of cohesive, rock-solid storytelling. Sure, there are vague mentions of prophecy early on, but they were intentionally vague because Lucas didn't know where anything was going. It was all made up as it went along, and that results in a ton of plot holes and details that don't add up (such as Obi-Wan saying in the original film that Anakin was a great starfighter when they first met, while Episode 1 shows Anakin as a little slave kid; things are forgotten and reworked all over the place).
The movies themselves (at least the original trilogy) are great, but on paper the stories are still really weak.
The interesting thing about that, though, is that it showcases what's so great about film itself; a well-directed, well-acted movie with great visuals and sound work can totally overcome a basically weak story. The original trilogy is an absolutely perfect example of that, as everything else about them is fantastic. ESB and RotJ are still stunning examples of filmmaking, regardless of whether or not a plan was in place.

[Kenny]

Like OL said, all that "prophecy" bullshit was all conjured up by the prequels. None of that shit was even remotely insinuated in the OT.

Yes it does. Why do you think they keep encouraging Luke to do things to fulfill his destiny, and "bring balance to the force" which is the exactly line they use when they talk about the prophecy of who will "bring balance to the force" in the prequels, insinuating that Luke could bring balance to the force. Even the scene with ghost obi-wan and yoda and the whole "there is another" in Empire they reference the prophecy. Come on guys (Kenny and OL)... if you are gonna sit here and debate this you should know this stuff. I am actually pretty darn disappointed in the both of you regarding this. Maybe you guys need to watch them again as a refresher because some of what you are saying is just plain incorrect...

I don't remember anyone saying that Luke has to bring balance to the Force. Only that the Force is binding and great disturbances can be felt. Maybe they did and I don't really remember because it wasn't stressed that much. The idea of something as specific as a prophecy was in the prequels and it was written around the OT to make it fit in.

I have no idea what this is all on about anyway. My point is that there are too many coincidences concerning surprise relatives (and other instances) in the Skywalker family and many more will be ridiculous unless they manage to justify it properly without seeming totally random and out of place.

Because it takes place "in a galaxy far far away" with its own rules different from the likes of our own with the force. Yalls biggest mistake here is your are trying to compare the world of star wars to that of our own world which takes half the fun and magic out of the films. Its like saying "That would never happen!" yeah, maybe not in our world but guess what? This is the world of star wars, its all part of the charm, the lore, and aspects of what makes the star wars universe what it is, it gives it its own individuality and what has made star wars a smash hit franchise adored by millions. The wonder about what it would be like in another galaxy, what kind of aspects (like god and the force) could be different, the mere setting of star wars really tickles the imagination of what could be and its all part of the collective reason so many people love it.

And Jar Jar being the sole reason why the Sith gained power within the senate thus creating the Empire is a perfectly understandable reason why that occurred. It had nothing to do with Lucas spiting fans who hated him for creating him in the first place. Not one bit. It's just fantastic storytelling on par with Darth revealing he's Luke's father.

Anyway, there are various degrees of license one can take before your suspension of disbelief finally expires on you. I hate the whole "but it's fictional, you can do anything" argument because it basically means you can make some utterly absurd decisions and it'll be fine. That means there is no "off" decision, everything can and should be implemented no matter what. Yeah, no. There is such a thing as "bad ideas" (otherwise why does no one like Batman & Robin as much as Dark Knight?) but everyone has their own idea on what's good or not. Very rarely are decisions made that the public nearly unanimously agrees or disagrees on.

I still maintain my position. It also doesn't matter if life is stranger than fiction. Totally besides the point.

Also makes that little MGS comparison irrelevant (although these particular cases do show how prequels and bouncing around from the past to the present to the future could be done better). Stop being so damn closed minded about all this PLEASE!!! Im not sure why YOU are arguing anymore, dont give me that.

It's not about WHY you're arguing, it's about WHAT you're arguing ABOUT. I forgot to add "about" in that last sentence.

And no, the MGS example is very relevant to my point. Cause that's exactly what's happening. Anything that happens in the original is retconned with a new explanation in the sequel. And I have no idea what you mean about closed minded. I don't accept things just because. I accept things because...reasons. Good reasons.

[AnimeGamer183]

Are you looking at this from a hollywood workers perspective? I feel like thats whats going on here. I mean thats fine, its not like I dont understand some of what you are saying, and why you are saying those things, but im just coming from a fans perspective that had star wars as one of the first things I remember as a kid, and just as a general in depth movie goer that likes to try to understand what each film is bringing to the table, thats the fun of watching film to me.

Anyway, I think I am going to break out the VCR soon so I can watch these, same ones I had when I was a kid. I also just wanna say that the packaging on these has held up incredibly well even the individual VHS boxes. These are 20 years old now, holy shit.