Religion

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Re: Religion

Postby Ziming » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:43 am

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Re: Religion

Postby MiTT3NZ » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:54 pm

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Re: Religion

Postby goaliefrk » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:40 pm

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There goes Hitchens again, droppin bombs of knowledge on the dreams of the fearful. Miss that guy
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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:43 pm

So, I made a thread a few months ago about how I feel like I'm a bad person.

I've been an atheist for nearly ten years now, and a lot has happened to make me realize the ethical poverty that is secularism. I'm not saying you need to be religious to be a good person or anything, but pretty much all the atheists I know (including me) are misanthropic and just not pleasant to be around. I've also been the type of atheist who believes the atheism absence philosophy is dire and hollow. The older I got, the more my anti-theism crumbled into a mockery of its former self and by the time I turned 30 I realized how important religion is to people's lives and its value to humanity.

For a long time, I have seeked truth. I've explored various religions and philosophies and nothing ever really stuck. But in the past few months or so I've been desperately missing the faith of my birth: Christianity. For a solid 19 years of my life Christianity was a big part of it and I missed it. Contrary to popular belief, I didn't leave the church because I had a bad experience.

So again, the past few months I've been working on righting my wrongs and trying to become a better person - someone that people would like to be around and is pleasant to talk to. I've been slowly undoing my negative outlook on life and started to open my heart again to the possibility of finding religion again.

Something happened the other day though. You could call it a coincidence but it felt too on the nose to be a coincidence, so after hours and hours of thinking I deduced that it was destiny. Ever since, I've been researching Christianity and trying to find intellectual rebuttals to my atheistic claims and questions. I'm starting to find that they don't really stand to scrutiny. I went to the church yesterday and talked to a priest. I prayed for God to place himself into my heart and that my heart was finally open for him again. I wasn't sure what I believed but I figured that it was worth a shot. If God doesn't exist, then I live my life as I did previously. But if God exists, then I could gain joy and spiritual fulfillment. In the end, it didn't matter and I had nothing to lose. I recall crying tears (joy? sadness?) while I prayed. It felt like something open a salve in my spiritual heart and love just pored through. Today I went to mass and cried twice. Once during a song and once during a prayer. I distinctly remember thinking that no philosophy that I've read could explain that feeling.

Right now I'm standing here not sure if I'm an atheist anymore and will be taking classes to become Catholic starting next month. I have so many questions about God/Jesus and I fully plan on having them answered sufficiently. I still have doubts, misgivings. But the doubts and misgivings don't outweigh the feeling I have when I pray in that chapel.
Last edited by Himuro on Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Religion

Postby sand4fish » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:32 pm

It looks like you found your sense of belonging, acceptance without judgement. Praying, meditating are basically having quiet time to yourself to reflect, a luxury nowadays. Not a bad thing even if you end up with not a concrete, better answer than the one you started with.

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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:54 pm

Thank you Sandfish.

I used to think that the universe was chaotic. But I'm starting to see a little order in it. The fact that something like gravity exists at all suggests order is real. Laws, atoms, the fact all life forms on Earth are made of carbon, the fact that we're made of "star stuff" hints that there is more order than I care to admit. And it humbles me in awe.

The more I ruminate over it the more I realize that atheism is a poverty of philosophical thought and the more I start to lean agnostic theist.
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Re: Religion

Postby Monkei » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:20 am

Himuro wrote:Thank you Sandfish.

I used to think that the universe was chaotic. But I'm starting to see a little order in it. The fact that something like gravity exists at all suggests order is real. Laws, atoms, the fact all life forms on Earth are made of carbon, the fact that we're made of "star stuff" hints that there is more order than I care to admit. And it humbles me in awe.

The more I ruminate over it the more I realize that atheism is a poverty of philosophical thought and the more I start to lean agnostic theist.


Sure there is order, in everything. The universe has physical/natural/call them whatever you like laws, which determine everything that happens in it. It's all grand and great and breathtaking when you think about it, but in no way is "order -> creator" or the other way around ever a logical conclusion to those observations. This universe wasn't "made" in a way for you to he able to exist and function in it. Nobody thought of you and then created the perfect surroundings and conditions. Those conditions just were. And then you came to be because the conditions not only allowed it, but determned it. And hey, what's that "you" you're thinking is doing all that thinking anyway? A bunch of other, smaller organisms that have influence from within, a bunch of outer influences, a bunch of memories. An organic computer that digests its surroundings the only way it can. Part of a species that had the mental and bodily (bigger brains, hands with thumbs, other stuff) abilities to create signs that represent sounds or ideas, which gave room to expand what was already written down, which in turn lead to new thoughts (all made possible through language), which then again expanded the collected knowledge and so on and so on. That inderdependency of language and thought lead to the way we perceive reality today. It's all nature, all physics, all microorganisms and atoms and quantum physics and whatever. Not only do we in no meaningful way differ from the other animals - in the end we don't differ from anything in this universe. Not the chair you're sitting in, the smartphone you're holding or that cloud in the sky outside your window. "You" don't really exist. At least that's my take on it. Now go back to feeling bad about yourself.

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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:11 am

I actually feel amazing about myself and have the past few months. :D As for the rest of your post, I will get to it later. I simply do not have the time now to do a proper rebuttal. But order and chaos is one of the things that kept me from believing. In my eyes, a world where bad things happen, where entire suns are sucked in to black holes is clearly chaotic because the conditions seems random. That was my conditional philosophy on why I personally did not believe in a God. But as I see more order, the more that turns my philosophy on its head. So I'm willing to get more into it but simply don't have the time right now besides express how I feel about order and chaos.

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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:53 pm

Monkei wrote:
Himuro wrote:Thank you Sandfish.

I used to think that the universe was chaotic. But I'm starting to see a little order in it. The fact that something like gravity exists at all suggests order is real. Laws, atoms, the fact all life forms on Earth are made of carbon, the fact that we're made of "star stuff" hints that there is more order than I care to admit. And it humbles me in awe.

The more I ruminate over it the more I realize that atheism is a poverty of philosophical thought and the more I start to lean agnostic theist.


Sure there is order, in everything. The universe has physical/natural/call them whatever you like laws, which determine everything that happens in it. It's all grand and great and breathtaking when you think about it, but in no way is "order -> creator" or the other way around ever a logical conclusion to those observations. This universe wasn't "made" in a way for you to he able to exist and function in it. Nobody thought of you and then created the perfect surroundings and conditions. Those conditions just were. And then you came to be because the conditions not only allowed it, but determned it. And hey, what's that "you" you're thinking is doing all that thinking anyway? A bunch of other, smaller organisms that have influence from within, a bunch of outer influences, a bunch of memories. An organic computer that digests its surroundings the only way it can. Part of a species that had the mental and bodily (bigger brains, hands with thumbs, other stuff) abilities to create signs that represent sounds or ideas, which gave room to expand what was already written down, which in turn lead to new thoughts (all made possible through language), which then again expanded the collected knowledge and so on and so on. That inderdependency of language and thought lead to the way we perceive reality today. It's all nature, all physics, all microorganisms and atoms and quantum physics and whatever. Not only do we in no meaningful way differ from the other animals - in the end we don't differ from anything in this universe. Not the chair you're sitting in, the smartphone you're holding or that cloud in the sky outside your window. "You" don't really exist. At least that's my take on it. Now go back to feeling bad about yourself.


I read all this and in the end it just gave me more hope for a creator. "And then you came to be because the conditions not only allowed it, but determined it." You're right and the fact that I even exist, the fact I have a consciousness, the fact all of this is here, the fact we can communicate to each other, things like love and awe, those raw emotions, that feeling I had in the church that gave me the urge to cry and kneel to God not for forgiveness but through pure appreciation, the human capacity and calling to SEEK. All of these things are nothing short of miracles in my eyes. There is order indeed. When a ball bounces on concrete it comes back to us, every time. These laws are consistent as if some unreal mathematician designed them. The fact that we live on Earth, the only planet in this solar system capable of having this kind of life is a miracle. All of this does not say that God exists, but it doesn't say that God DOESN'T exist either, and given all of this I am choosing right here and now to believe!

The problem with atheist naturalist philosophy is that it can be just as easily be applied to theism.
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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:49 pm

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Re: Religion

Postby KiBa » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:51 am

Is there a God/Gods?

It is self-evident.

If you believe in God/Gods why do you choose to do so?

Existence is God and vice versa.

If you believe in a singular god do you think the Abrahamic beliefs portray accurately his nature?

Existence is the predicate of all possible propositions, including all propositions about all propositions, and so on. Therefore, existence in itself can only be univocally one substantially; that is, there is nothing besides that which exists, by definition. That which co-exists is, therefore, necessarily a part of that Whole which is the predicate of all possible propositions.

Exodus 3:14: "And God said unto Moses, I am HE WHO IS." Only Abraham and the Hindus explicitly equate God to Existence itself, and only the Abrahamic religious traditions simultaneously regard your life as 'not God', which paradox explains the historical success of the Abrahamic religions relative to other beliefs, because we know something must exist necessarily, while at the same time I cannot know that I exist necessarily. That paradox fits human nature perfectly. It is the most fundamental expression of what we are. In colloquial terms, it is nothing other than the following electrifying exclamation about life: "Everything is exactly as it seems."


If yes which Abrahamic religion do you believe to portray his nature most accurately and why?

Christianity, because reality is self-evidently aesthetically describable as trinitarian: subject, object, and context/Whole.

What are your views on Judaism, Christianity and Islam?

Two propose less truths than the third.

What are your views on Hinduism and Buddhism?

By definition, the only proper response to both teachings is the silence of ineffability, since either only my grammar cannot describe nonetheless knowable truths about a Whole in which subject, object, and context, are illusory (Hinduism), or even that proposition and all others -- including this one -- must be illusory (Buddhism).

What are your views on other spiritual beliefs such as Bahais, Zoroastrianism etc?

Like Islam and Judaism, the Bahá'í faith claims God is one absolutely and in every respect. But experience can be described as trinitarian, or 'three and one', being the subjective, objective, and context of both/universe. Therefore,
etc, as above.

Zoroastrianism has been either the belief in two absolutes, or of one absolute within which two forces (light and darkness) battle. If the former theology, the problem is that reality is one, not two. Experience is one, and so I logically cannot know about another, since co-existence means only this: that there is one universe, one highest order between multiple propositions of which all possible existents are parts by virtue of their co-existence in that Whole. If the latter theology, the problem is not whether a struggle between light and darkness is an accurate description of the ethical problems life, but as with Islam, Judaism, and the Bahá'í faith, God cannot only be described as absolutely one in every respect, since reality/existence is one-and-three as explained above. To explicate my implicit axiom, there are no causes in experience that produce completely different effects. Therefore, since experience can be described in a trinitarian manner, the only consistent aesthetic judgment about the cause of experience qua experience must be that it too is a trinity ad infinitum unto whatever terminus I may then call 'God', transcendent or immanent.


What are your views on Atheists, Agnostics?

Most atheists believe in the universe-as-they-perceive-it without the possibility of empirical proof because foundational experience cannot contain transcendent information, by definition. Thus, they are confused about language and they are using terms in contradictory or useless ways. Such an implicit or explicit premise as "'The universe exists as I perceive it, and I do not perceive a transcendent God' is an empirical proposition" is plainly the grammatical/contextual equivalent to any other implicit or explicit positive religious proposition, such as "'The universe exists as I perceive it, and I perceive a transcendent God' is an empirical proposition". Therefore, the word 'atheism' is often not used to signify a genuinely held and consistently defined philosophical position, but instead is used as a political tool of cultural transformation. Genuine atheists who consistently wish to carry through the definition of 'God' as 'that which exists necessarily' really want to say there is only one substance of which all things are modes, or that "'God' is a synonym of 'The Universe/Cosmos', or "God is immanent". The abuse of language in each opposite claim, either that 'God is immanent', or 'God is transcendent', are not facts within experience, but the attempt to utter a fact about experience qua experience as a whole. If a genuine/logically consistent atheist wants to say, "God is immanent", the full meaning of the phrase would simultaneously render itself ineffable, since if God were immanent, our language/grammar/structure of our thoughts cannot adequately model reality, since all human languages rely on there being multiple things, not just one thing (Matter/Universe/God/Substance/etc). In other words, the genuine atheist is trying to assemble terms that imply multiplicity (self and objects) to lead to the conclusion that the foregoing premises are illusory, whereas the genuine theist ('God is transcendent') sufficiently saves faith in the truth of our use of language by his first axiom that there are at least two things: God and a separate creation that "God created out of nothing" (the unknowable mystery of mysteries). But neither the genuine atheist, nor the genuine theist, nor the one who remains silent, can speak of 'God/Necessary Being'. Being a consistent theist only means you can think you can speak deeply about the universe because you believe it is intelligibly created. In other words, no one 'believes in God'. Like the consistent atheist who really wants to say of experience qua experience that 'I am God', the consistent theist really wants to say, "I am not God." Each proposition is a reaction to life for a variety of reasons, perhaps psychological or political and so on, unrelated to a quest for, or love of, truth. Both propositions are entirely aesthetic judgments, emphatically cannot be logical conclusions since logic provides no content about logic, and certainly not empirical observations by definition.

Agnostics are people with a life who don't have time to reason all of this out. They've got better things to do, or at least other things that may be worse. If they want to know whether it's better or worse, their only option is start thinking and concluding like everybody else. Failing that, you can always give money to Shenmue 3. I want ragdoll physics.
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Re: Religion

Postby Ziming » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:57 pm

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Re: Religion

Postby dbzruler88 » Sat May 13, 2017 7:11 am

I am a very vocal Atheist, as a matter of fact, about a week ago I started writing an essay of sorts. It is far from complete, still very much a rough draft, but I will share it with you in its current form.

Hello, my name is Jeremy, and I’m going to let you know why I’m an atheist. But before I do that, I’m going to address some of the many misinformed preconceptions of atheists.

Atheists must have had a bad upbringing: This is an overstated and unfounded observation. Many, if not most of us (myself included) had a great childhood. I had parents that cared for me, I lived in a good neighborhood, and I didn’t associate with bad influences. As a matter of fact, my parents made me go to church.
Why are you atheists so angry with god?: There’s a couple things that are wrong with this. First I’m going to reiterate that we don’t believe in god, so we definitely aren’t mad at him. And if there is anything we may be angry about it is most likely a result of religious privilege, lawmakers trying to tear down the wall separating church and state, and bigotry.
Atheists don’t believe in anything: This one is particularly frustrating. Just because we don’t believe in god, doesn’t mean we don’t believe in anything. We believe in compassion, love, and doing right by everybody, regardless of beliefs or lack thereof.
What is the point to living if there is no afterlife?: The answer to this one is simple. This is the only life we have, so we should live it to the fullest, and do everything in our power to leave the world a better place than it was when we came into it.
Without god, what is keeping you from killing or raping somebody?: First of all, if god is the only thing keeping you from doing these things, please stay away from my family and get help. I think we can all agree that life is a lot better when there isn’t so much negativity. Doing bad things makes you feel bad and does harm to others, why would we want to do that?
Atheists eat babies: No we don't, don’t be stupid.
Atheists worship Satan: We don’t believe in Satan any more than we believe in god. So this is untrue.
If you don’t believe in god, why do you spend money that says “In god we trust” on it?: Unfortunately at this time we don’t have much of a choice now do we? There are many groups fighting to replace “In god we trust” with the original motto (E Pluribus Unum). Let’s hope this is made possible so it is fair across the board.
Why can’t you just leave religious people alone?: If somebody wants to practice their faith on their own time, without inconveniencing anybody else, then go for it, no skin off my back. There are, however, various situations that it is NOT ok to discuss your faith. Here are a few examples if you’re unsure about what I mean: A teacher in a public, tax funded school cannot impose their faith upon students (this is perfectly fine in private schools). Another example is a lawmaker who uses their religion in political decisions, that’s a big no no. Should I go for a third example? Yes? Ok, an officer of the law, who gets paid by taxpayers, cannot proselytize while on duty. These are a few real life situations that actually happen, and unfortunately in most of these situations, they go unchecked. So in those situations, no, we will not leave you alone. Not anymore.

Ok, now that we got that out of the way, let’s get to the meat and potatoes of why I am an atheist. So here goes. The reason I don’t believe in god is simply because I’ve not been given any evidence to support that god exists.
That’s it.
I know that you feel him and that too many things happened in your life for you not to believe.
I know that the trees and the clouds are proof to you. It isn't.
I know that the bible says it, so that must be proof. It isn't.
I get it. Really, I do.
I understand that you were most likely raised to believe what you believe. I understand it is comforting to you. And more power to you, if you find solace in god, who am I to stop that?
But you have to understand where we come from if you’re truly going to understand us as people.
If I told you there was an invisible pink unicorn standing behind you, you’d want proof. And if I told you that you can’t prove it doesn’t exist, you wouldn’t accept that.
It’s the same thing with god. If you cannot provide evidence to support it, you can’t be upset when we don’t believe you.
I will leave it with this. There are many people who are closet atheists, but who are stuck in situations (religious families, relationships, communities) and may feel they are alone. My message to you is, you aren't. You shouldn’t have to hide who you really are to satisfy somebody else's beliefs of who you should be. Reach out. There’s groups like the United Coalition of Reason that can help you connect with likeminded people.
We're all in this together.


I am still debating whether to include something about the many contradictions in the bible (like night and day being created before the sun, or when Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Kane and Abel, and then Kane killed Abel and went to live among the people in the land of Nod.....where the hell did the people in the land of Nod come from?!), but i'm not sure if it fits with the theme of the essay.

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Re: Religion

Postby Thief » Sun May 14, 2017 6:18 pm

dbzruler88 wrote:I am still debating whether to include something about the many contradictions in the bible (like night and day being created before the sun, or when Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Kane and Abel, and then Kane killed Abel and went to live among the people in the land of Nod.....where the hell did the people in the land of Nod come from?!), but i'm not sure if it fits with the theme of the essay.


I think it's important to note that the belief in God isn't necessarily correlated with any organized religion, or any artifact of organized religion—especially the Christian bible. I'm a Deist, which means I believe there is a God, but I do not believe he is perfect, nor do I believe that he interferes with the world (which means I deny revelation and any other sort of communication with God).
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Re: Religion

Postby Bluecast » Mon May 15, 2017 5:51 pm

I am not religious in the least bit. I like science. I have beliefs like anyone. Thing is while I don't share the beliefs of people who are religious, I have nothing against it. For some it helps them cope with shit moments in life and sometimes helps them be a better person. Some people do abuse it and use ignorance to harm others directly or indirectly but TBH those kinds of people would find a way anyway to harm others like that. I am open to ideas and possibilities,I just can't settle on a single ideal. I need more than that.

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