Religion

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Re: Religion

Postby Sokora » Mon May 15, 2017 8:12 pm

Bluecast wrote: I am not religious in the least bit. I like science. I have beliefs like anyone. Thing is while I don't share the beliefs of people who are religious, I have nothing against it. For some it helps them cope with shit moments in life and sometimes helps them be a better person. Some people do abuse it and use ignorance to harm others directly or indirectly but TBH those kinds of people would find a way anyway to harm others like that. I am open to ideas and possibilities,I just can't settle on a single ideal. I need more than that.


Sounds like you're probably more agnostic than atheist.

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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Mon May 22, 2017 8:21 pm

A big problem atheists/agnostics make is the assumption that being religious means you're anti-science.
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Re: Religion

Postby dbzruler88 » Mon May 22, 2017 11:12 pm

Himuro wrote: A big problem atheists/agnostics make is the assumption that being religious means you're anti-science.


Although it isn't true for everybody, there is a large percentage of religious people who won't accept any scientific research that doesn't support their beliefs.

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Re: Religion

Postby shredingskin » Mon May 22, 2017 11:19 pm

There's also a lot of people that jumped in because it was the new fad.

You'll be amazed how many "atheist" believe in "cosmic energies" and universal balance stuff, but they'll jump to mock religious people for the same type of bullshit only codified in old textbooks and now pseudo newagey/sciency fluff they believe to fit in.
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Re: Religion

Postby south carmain » Tue May 23, 2017 12:03 am

Concerning Christianity and science I find that Dr David Wood makes some pretty valid points in this debate notably the role that religion played in the scientific revolution.
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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 12:55 am

dbzruler88 wrote:
Himuro wrote: A big problem atheists/agnostics make is the assumption that being religious means you're anti-science.


Although it isn't true for everybody, there is a large percentage of religious people who won't accept any scientific research that doesn't support their beliefs.



A large percentage but they seem to be in the minority. There are 1 billion Catholics for example and the Church supports evolution. Atheists who use science as a motivator against religion are misguided, as many of the theories they support such as Big Bang were created by priests. At one point in time, religion (especially Christianity) and science were best friends.
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Re: Religion

Postby shredingskin » Tue May 23, 2017 1:03 am

And at some point worst enemies... That's not a very compelling point TBH.

That's part of why of the abrahamanic religions the jews are one step ahead (probably also because they were btfo everywhere, so they learned to keep it low, while profiting from goyim), they take religion as a guideline to social interactions (that's what the fucking talmud is), while christians and muslims thinks of their books as perfect, sacred and whatnot, that you can easily take them for literal.
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Re: Religion

Postby UnHoly Bible » Tue May 23, 2017 1:05 am

I think a problem with the atheist movement is it doesn't really focus at this point on giving people a legitimate way to find meaning/reasons to live. Without that, an atheist easily gets disillusioned when they're forced to ask questions like "Why should I suffer?" and "How can I be released from/ Gain the strength to endure/ my suffering?" Its also clear that major religions can't just go away, but surely they can be updated so that when people are raising their kids in the religion, they are taught how to interpret the metaphysical concepts in their holy texts properly, because they do carry clear meaning to them, and studying them in a certain way can allow people to find "god", so to speak, in the context of their own experiences of life. How to get rid of the crazies who use holy texts as a tool for their own selfish/whatever gains? IDK, maybe redefine religious freedoms so that the crackpot-led sects of various religions that let their metaphysical realities seep into their objective realities can be cracked down upon or at the least limited in some ways. Call me a fascist or whatever, but Im just saying I think all of these ancient religions are fine and shouldn't be banned ( we've seen the consequences of that before), but its clear what we're defining religious freedom as now is limiting a lot more individual freedom than it is creating.

tl;dr, atheists and theists/deists/etc can easily work together, if the right people come about who actually understand why religion exists and is perfectly fine as a way of life, and why atheism can be perfectly good to as a way of life , and have many many dialogues, the two can co-exist. I think this may be beginning to occur
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Re: Religion

Postby shredingskin » Tue May 23, 2017 1:15 am

UnHoly Bible wrote: I think a problem with the atheist movement is it doesn't really focus at this point on giving people a legitimate way to find meaning/reasons to live.


Because it's not a religion. And it shouldn't strive to give people meaning. I fucking cringe when people go "we are stardust", so is fucking shit.

Meaning ends up being whatever hill you choose to die in (or reality chooses one for you), I don't believe in prepackaged answers to that.

but its clear what we're defining religious freedom as now is limiting a lot more individual freedom than it is creating.

People should have the freedom to be as crazy as they want (while not infringing law), and restricting themselves is also a way of freedom (while cohersion and societal pressure in certain social circles is not). I don't know how it's limiting apart from those examples.

In the cases of taxes is a whole other can of worms that should be adressed by every proclaimed secular country.
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Re: Religion

Postby Thief » Tue May 23, 2017 1:15 am

The scientific revolution was also largely a result of intellectuals who believed in a God and who wanted to provide a foundation for physics that was compatible with such a belief. Copernicus, Gassendi, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, and more, all believed in a God. It is certainly not anti-science to believe in a God.
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Re: Religion

Postby south carmain » Tue May 23, 2017 1:20 am

shredingskin wrote: And at some point worst enemies... That's not a very compelling point TBH.

That's part of why of the abrahamanic religions the jews are one step ahead (probably also because they were btfo everywhere, so they learned to keep it low, while profiting from goyim), they take religion as a guideline to social interactions (that's what the fucking talmud is), while christians and muslims thinks of their books as perfect, sacred and whatnot, that you can easily take them for literal.

The Jews also think of the Tanakh as being perfect and sacred. the difference between Jews and other religions is that Judaism is also an ethnic group, most of the Jews that you are referring to aren't religious and probably don't believe in the Bible, like Einstein who had a very different view of God than the one of the Bible. You will also find plenty of Orthodox Jewish creationists who reject many parts of modern science just like Christians and Muslims and I can assure you that they also take the Talmud very seriously. Also thinking of the Bible as sacred and perfect doesn't mean we can't reinterpret it in light of modern science, the Christians that started the scientific revolution did it to understand God better and they found no difficulty as many still don't in interpreting the bible from a scientific viewpoint. Of course you will have different sects that will oppose such behaviour and even call it heretical based on their own theology but I would argue that personal bias hindering scientific advancement isn't just a religious thing, any personal bias can have this effect.
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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 1:22 am

shredingskin wrote: And at some point worst enemies... That's not a very compelling point TBH.

That's part of why of the abrahamanic religions the jews are one step ahead (probably also because they were btfo everywhere, so they learned to keep it low, while profiting from goyim), they take religion as a guideline to social interactions (that's what the fucking talmud is), while christians and muslims thinks of their books as perfect, sacred and whatnot, that you can easily take them for literal.


A big problem with this is that paints all Christians with the same brush. Not all Christians take the entirety of the bible literal.

When was science and religion worse enemies? It's not even true now.
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Re: Religion

Postby Thief » Tue May 23, 2017 1:25 am

Was Einstein a Christian? I had thought he believed in Spinoza's conception of God.
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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 1:26 am

Einstein was a deist.

Thief wrote: The scientific revolution was also largely a result of intellectuals who believed in a God and who wanted to provide a foundation for physics that was compatible with such a belief. Copernicus, Gassendi, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, and more, all believed in a God. It is certainly not anti-science to believe in a God.


Newton used his science to try to prove God's existence.

Funny thing here is that the Church latched on it as evidence of God being real as fact. Apparently before God was taken as fact, the existence of God within the Catholic Church was far more open ended. And when you make God as fact in the 1700's the result is a rise in atheism in the 1800's during the Enlightment.

Essentially, Christianity's - namely Catholic's - grasp on faith today is the result of its past interactions with science to prove God's existence. Thus saying religion - especially Christianity - as anti-science is completely incorrect. The Church used science to argue that God was fact.
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Re: Religion

Postby UnHoly Bible » Tue May 23, 2017 1:29 am

shredingskin wrote:
UnHoly Bible wrote: I think a problem with the atheist movement is it doesn't really focus at this point on giving people a legitimate way to find meaning/reasons to live.


Because it's not a religion. And it shouldn't strive to give people meaning. I fucking cringe when people go "we are stardust", so is fucking shit.

Meaning ends up being whatever hill you choose to die in (or reality chooses one for you), I don't believe in prepackaged answers to that.



I don't mean atheism should give people meaning. But it should take account for an essential part of being that is beyond objective reality. There is no need for atheism to explain the meaning of life, but just to explain that not every part of being human is rational and objective. The attempt to explain why someone should be an atheist is incomplete, and it involves metaphysics. And you can't go there without asking about meaning in life. Thats why everyone in the world isn't an atheist, and if people want that to occur, well it's kinda pointless in terms of keeping society stable, but it will never occur as some seem to think it will.

If you think you don't have any reason whatsoever to keep living, you could be one of those lucky folk who haven't been forced to take a look at that.
Last edited by UnHoly Bible on Tue May 23, 2017 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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