Religion

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Re: Religion

Postby sand4fish » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:07 pm

south carmain wrote: the Criteria is rather simple as far as Christian theology goes, we are all sinners therefore we all deserve the wrath of god and none deserve to enter paradise, but out of love Jesus was sent to earth to sacrifice himself to take upon himself the wrath of god and absolve us of our sins that we may be purified and enter paradise which is a place of perfection therefore no one who hasn't been cleansed by the blood of Christ may enter as they are still "dirty" by sin.

That's the short version anyway but of course you really need to study in detail both the old and new testament to understand the full picture as it's a very deep philosophical concept.


It would be simple if not for the fact that in order to be saved you have to accept Jesus in your life and we are talking about a just God. Wouldn't it be unfair for those who never even heard of Jesus or have been dead before his sacrifice took place? Are Adam and Eve forever doomed because of an Angel created by God?
Are our salvation a matter of luck in meeting a missionary to learn and accept the Bible and Jesus during our lifespan?

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Re: Religion

Postby south carmain » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:51 pm

sand4fish wrote:
south carmain wrote: the Criteria is rather simple as far as Christian theology goes, we are all sinners therefore we all deserve the wrath of god and none deserve to enter paradise, but out of love Jesus was sent to earth to sacrifice himself to take upon himself the wrath of god and absolve us of our sins that we may be purified and enter paradise which is a place of perfection therefore no one who hasn't been cleansed by the blood of Christ may enter as they are still "dirty" by sin.

That's the short version anyway but of course you really need to study in detail both the old and new testament to understand the full picture as it's a very deep philosophical concept.


It would be simple if not for the fact that in order to be saved you have to accept Jesus in your life and we are talking about a just God. Wouldn't it be unfair for those who never even heard of Jesus or have been dead before his sacrifice took place?

There are 2 views on this, one that implies that Christ can save people without them knowing and the second that any person that unconsciously wants to be saved like the Centurion Cornelius, god will send them the message.
Are Adam and Eve forever doomed because of an Angel created by God?

No one has actually been judged now so those who followed God until the coming of the Messiah will be saved on judgement day I believe
Are our salvation a matter of luck in meeting a missionary to learn and accept the Bible and Jesus during our lifespan?

In the Christian faith nothing actually happens out of luck so it depends what perspective you look at it from. If you're a non-believer then yeah it seems completely irrational and unfair but from a biblical perspective it's much more controlled.
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Re: Religion

Postby Mr. Frozen » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:43 am

south carmain wrote: So in short the majority of you believe that you're too intelligent to believe in a creator?


tfw too intelligent to believe in god.

It isn't an intelligence thing for me. Maybe people who believe in God have a better grasp on life or some shit, I dunno. It is just that believing in God requires such a large leap in faith that I'm am not willing to take. Most people in my position refer to themselves as an agnostic, but using the term agnostic instead of agnostic atheist or agnostic thiest is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Kinda like how people say "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less", but saying agnostic instead of atheist is a bit worse since the term agnostic literally has two different non-trivial meanings. Identifying as an agnostic is like saying you disposed of a black. A black what? A black person? A black cat? A black pen? The second half is pretty important.
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Re: Religion

Postby Thief » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:03 am

There are both very intelligent people who believe in a God and very intelligent people who do not believe in a God. Anyway, this topic is interesting, and I may respond later when I have more time to flesh out a response.
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Re: Religion

Postby Ziming » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:29 am

There are people right now learning of a flat enclosed earth cosmology and believing there is a creator solely because of that. That the heliocentric/big bang model taught in schools and endorsed by mainstream science is one big lie. This is a conspiracy topic that has had a huge resurgence in the past 2-3 years.

I brought this up because those who are convinced of this model change their views spiritually to believing there is a creator. They no longer believe they live on a insignificant spinning blue ball flying through infinite space in the vast big-bang universe.

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Re: Religion

Postby shredingskin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:11 am

I was "raised" christian (since my family isn't really practitioners or whatever) but went to christian school till I was 15.
Since I was 10 I would consider me buddhist, reading sutras and meditating like 5 days a week.

I guess around 14/15 I just stop really caring about religion as it was, now I consider myself atheist, and quite an antitheist also.

I don't mind practitioners, but I do really have some hate with the institutions.

I still like the mysticism of all it, and I can see how it can improve some people's lifes, I just look at it as entertainment.
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Re: Religion

Postby sand4fish » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:15 pm

south carmain wrote: There are 2 views on this, one that implies that Christ can save people without them knowing and the second that any person that unconsciously wants to be saved like the Centurion Cornelius, god will send them the message.

I'm aware that there's an allure to inclusivism perspective. But I find that view invalidating the need of practicing Christian values and faith during our stay on Earth, when the chance to repent and accept Jesus would come to us anyway eventually (even after death) in that case. After all I'm pretty sure everyone would unconsciously want to be saved, specially by the time they are aware of the existence of a spiritual realm.

south carmain wrote:No one has actually been judged now so those who followed God until the coming of the Messiah will be saved on judgement day I believe


People are not in hell or heaven yet, but the path for those who never heard of God seems certain if inclusivism does not apply. I'm saying this because there are other views which exclude those who didn't practice Christian faith when alive, as I remember a bible passage that cites that those who shout for God's name will be saved, but how would they call on him if they did not believe in him? And then it goes to how would they believe in him if they never heard of him and someone preaching it to them. Faith comes from hearing through the word of Christ in Christianity.

south carmain wrote:In the Christian faith nothing actually happens out of luck so it depends what perspective you look at it from. If you're a non-believer then yeah it seems completely irrational and unfair but from a biblical perspective it's much more controlled.


If it's not luck, it has to do with God choosing whom to give the chance to be saved. As an example East Asia would be doomed to hell as Christianity only started being spread there probably centuries after Christ's death. And no amount of missionaries could cover such a large continent even back then (and even now with the likes of the Chinese government basically prohibiting any religious gathering practice and access to information). And could God really blame these people if in their death bed they were praying to other gods when they never heard of Jesus during their lifetime?

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Re: Religion

Postby south carmain » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:14 am

I made a mistake in regards to people before christ being saved by him, before him they needed to make animal sacrifices to cover their sins as the repentance for sins could only be done through blood.

Well as for the rest in reality we don't really know how god will judge these people in biblical terms although it is suggested that those who did good despite not knowing the word of god will have some form of mercy however it is important to spread the gospel to be able to bring those who have strayed to a righteous path.

Also it's not really about god choosing but rather him knowing which people will be open to his word and when they would be ready to recieve it. I'm on my phone right now so can't really bring up the references right now that explain these things but if you're still interested I would be happy to discuss it further in more detail once I'm on my computer either here or through pm
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Re: Religion

Postby sand4fish » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:07 pm

You are right about the blood sacrifices, as I had learned about them before but forgotten by now. If you are willing to share, I'd read it and I don't mind either method.
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Re: Religion

Postby Calshot » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:00 am

Though I'm definitely more of a science man than a religious man, I do find it annoying when people ignore religion's contribution to science. Sure, there's hyper religious people who don't acknowledge science and take their beliefs literally. It's just as silly though when people have some kind of persecution complex like scientists are being brought down by the religious establishment. A big part of science is fact-checking, yet there's still a lot of misinformation being spread, like Galileo being some kind of science martyr or the Dark Ages being full of book burnings and zero advancement.
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Re: Religion

Postby Sonikku » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:38 am

Let us not also forget that it was a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, that put forth the big bang theory that many scientists now cling to today.
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Re: Religion

Postby Monkei » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:42 pm

Those of you who believe there is some kind of god: What do you think we are? Wouldn't you agree that we're the current final result of everything that's come before? Whatever you guys do, think, or say next is.. what is it? Is it random? Or the only thing that could happen? Where does the thought or action come from?

And secondly: What do you imagine your gods to be? Something that can be imagined? Described? Like something mortal, earthly? Because in my teens I was always of the opinion that a god would have to be something impossible to grasp by the human mind. Yet those ideas of a big guy who judges, forgives, punishes, builds, destroys are all extremely primitive and human if you put them in contrast to what a godlike entity should be. What limits do your gods have? Are they restricted by time and space?

If you seriously start considering things like these, can you still find room for your gods and beliefs?

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that I'm of the opinion that you can only believe as long as you don't think about the details.. you gotta be really vague in how you imagine the universe and how your god actually works in order for it to work.

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Re: Religion

Postby Henry Spencer » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:45 pm

I'm of the Agnostic variety (can't really prove or disprove there being some sort of force that has created all life in the Universe). I don't think there is any god that created us after their image or a god that watches over just us or a god that has any real consciousness like we think of (basically, any kind of "god in the classical sense such as any kind found in any kind of religion or belief system at all) it but rather I do think there is always the possibility of something like some sort of infinite energy at the centre of the Universe perhaps that created everything (like the Big Bang), rather than a "man" that created everything.

I also don't believe in "Lucifer" or the "Devil" either but think the idea of collective negative energy combining to form evil being interesting as is thinking that there is some sort of Void/enormous Black Hole somewhere out there somewhere in the Universe that will swallow us all up one day and kill all life (in a sense, that is the Devil, it's essentially the End of everything ever). I tend to think that the concept of "Yin/Yang" isn't so far off as the Big Bang was created by that "god" which is comprised of some sort of energy somewhere in the Universe and then in that instance of the Big Bang happened created the Yang effect, or the Devil, or the Void that will end us all one day.

Regarding the "afterlife", I had the weirdest dream the other day where I dreamt that I had died, my consciousness died then another me was "turned on" after I "died" which I somehow merged with and was in an alternative time and place with memory remember that had happened. The old me was dead but the new me did things very differently from what I do and acted differently too. This new me had a different name and looked differently but was still me, it's hard to explain. Then I woke up. Reincarnation fascinates me. As does the thought of there being portals into alternative worlds/Parallel Universes. If they do exist as well? Could there really be alternative versions of ourselves in these Parallel Universes that make different choices or would we just not exist in these other Universes?

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Re: Religion

Postby elfshadowreaper » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:13 pm

In late to the party but I'm a born again Christian. I believe God is an interdemensional being who has no beginning or end. Everything was created by him. He exists as one God in three persons: the father, the son and the Holy Spirit. The father acts outside our knowable dimensions but still very much impacts the world we live in. The son Jesus was God entering in physical form our dimension to interact personally with us and ultimately die taking on our sins and punishment before being resurrected three days later. The Holy Spirit is what dwells in the believer in Jesus after salvation. I believe heaven and hell are real. We all go to one place or the other. It's not dependent on anything we've done or haven't done in this life but our faith in Jesus that gains us access to heaven.

I also want to touch on one point that has come up earlier. Just because people from the Bible behave in certain ways does not meant that is the way God intended them to act. For instance polygamy. I know Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines. I can't remember anywhere in the Bible where God approves of this. On the contrary you can see the negative effects of having multiple wives.

Also with sodom and gamora I don't think it was homosexuality specifically that was the reason God judged them. It was because they were wicked in general. People make their homosexuality a lightning rod as to why God destroyed them. I don't read in the text where this is the case.

I'm not an expert in the Bible by any stretch but I do read it nearly every day. My parents taught me to love God and I'm teaching the same to my daughter. I've seen God work in my life. I see the beauty of his creation. I have joy knowing that when I die I will be with him forever. I'll have so many questions to ask.

I'm not perfect. I'm far from it. But I'm saved by grace and covered by God's mercy.

And yes, I did pray on a few occasions for Shenmue 3. But every single time I felt it was so insignificant to be praying to the creator of the universe for a sequel to a silly video game. But I took solace in the verse from Philippians 4:6 "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."
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Re: Religion

Postby south carmain » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:57 am

elfshadowreaper wrote: In late to the party but I'm a born again Christian. I believe God is an interdemensional being who has no beginning or end. Everything was created by him. He exists as one God in three persons: the father, the son and the Holy Spirit. The father acts outside our knowable dimensions but still very much impacts the world we live in. The son Jesus was God entering in physical form our dimension to interact personally with us and ultimately die taking on our sins and punishment before being resurrected three days later. The Holy Spirit is what dwells in the believer in Jesus after salvation. I believe heaven and hell are real. We all go to one place or the other. It's not dependent on anything we've done or haven't done in this life but our faith in Jesus that gains us access to heaven.

I also want to touch on one point that has come up earlier. Just because people from the Bible behave in certain ways does not meant that is the way God intended them to act. For instance polygamy. I know Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines. I can't remember anywhere in the Bible where God approves of this. On the contrary you can see the negative effects of having multiple wives.

Also with sodom and gamora I don't think it was homosexuality specifically that was the reason God judged them. It was because they were wicked in general. People make their homosexuality a lightning rod as to why God destroyed them. I don't read in the text where this is the case.

I'm not an expert in the Bible by any stretch but I do read it nearly every day. My parents taught me to love God and I'm teaching the same to my daughter. I've seen God work in my life. I see the beauty of his creation. I have joy knowing that when I die I will be with him forever. I'll have so many questions to ask.

I'm not perfect. I'm far from it. But I'm saved by grace and covered by God's mercy.

And yes, I did pray on a few occasions for Shenmue 3. But every single time I felt it was so insignificant to be praying to the creator of the universe for a sequel to a silly video game. But I took solace in the verse from Philippians 4:6 "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."

What brought you to christ if you don't mind me asking?
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