Lets Talk Shenmue HD

(Chapter 1 | General Series Discussion)

Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby celsowm » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:43 pm

For me is 10/10, but the problem is "when"

As @Spaghetti said, the last public statment about Shenmue HD was three months ago and we don't know if they really started something or not.

Of course, since that interview, Sega still remembering Shenmue, like last month's tweet about Shenmue 2 anniversary (https://twitter.com/SEGA_Europe/status/ ... 6847000577).

Well, for us what remains is patience, hope and #SaveShenmueHD's campaing until the glorious day
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby punkmanced » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:51 pm

Hot news. Sega is currently investigating the possibility of potentially thinking about considering a would-be release at some point in time.

punkmanced has received a thanks from: Mr357
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Sonoshee » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:01 pm

Centrale wrote:
Sonoshee wrote: I'm confident it will happen. Not so confident it will happen before Shenmue 3. We all know how slow Sega are.

RiGoRmOrTiS wrote:

If the licensing issues are actually on software tools they used and those companies don't exist anymore the problem could be insurmountable... Or require so much recoding they'd never make money on it...



I think Spaghetti already quashed this possibility. The issue would be with branded in-game items such as Coca Cola and Timex.


Hardly. Spaghetti expressed their opinion that that was an unfounded rumor. However, so is the speculation that it's an issue of in-game branding. How does one user's speculation "quash" anyone else's speculation? At the end of the day none of us know for sure what the "licensing issues" are or even if the person who mentioned it actually knew what they were talking about.


I'd write a post explaining myself but it seems Spaghetti's follow up to your post pretty much said it all lol
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Centrale » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:07 pm

Spaghetti wrote: The source of the product licences "rumour" (it's actually an outright admission of what the holdup is) is SEGA itself. The source of the middleware rumour was a poster on NeoGAF which was never substantiated by another source, and was somehow picked up by blogs and other forum posters until it became "fact".


The statement from "Sega itself" is from a community manager, not someone directly involved in development. Furthermore, the phrase "licensed products" could still be interpreted either way, whether it be products represented in-game or middleware development tools. Jurgen's statement is similarly non-specific.

As I mentioned before, I don't consider either explanation to be "fact." But it seems unlikely to me that development of the HD versions would be held up for months or years at a time while Sega tries to procure the rights to a Timex watch design or a Coca-Cola vending machine when they could replace that within a day's work with a "Mitex" watch or a "Jet Cola" machine.

In any case, I don't have a horse in this race. But if you attempt to stifle discussion in a purely speculative topic you can expect some pushback.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:21 pm

Centrale wrote:But if you attempt to stifle discussion in a purely speculative topic you can expect some pushback.

I literally gave you a quote from two sources within SEGA (one being the European COO!) about what the situation is. It's also pretty non-ambiguous what "licenced products" is referring to, but if you want to read into it like that, go right ahead.

This isn't speculation. It's the direct word from SEGA.

Someone on NeoGAF touting "information" that nobody else ever backed up is speculation.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Centrale » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:34 pm

Spaghetti wrote:
Centrale wrote:But if you attempt to stifle discussion in a purely speculative topic you can expect some pushback.

I literally gave you a quote from two sources within SEGA (one being the European COO!) about what the situation is. It's also pretty non-ambiguous what "licenced products" is referring to, but if you want to read into it like that, go right ahead.

This isn't speculation. It's the direct word from SEGA.

Someone on NeoGAF touting "information" that nobody else ever backed up is speculation.


I appreciate you taking the time to provide those quotes. And I explained to you why your interpretation of those quotes is no more factual than anyone else's. "Pretty non-ambiguous" equals factual and indisputable to you, duly noted.

A community manager is essentially the boss of the forum moderators, not someone who would know or be allowed to comment on technical issues. The middleware licensing explanation is more logical than not being able to get permission to use the image of a Timex watch holding up the entire project - that's why that explanation continues to be considered. It's not really a "winnable" argument in any case, as none of us have the official answer.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby jcjimher » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:37 pm

Spaghetti wrote:This isn't speculation. It's the direct word from SEGA.

Someone on NeoGAF touting "information" that nobody else ever backed up is speculation.


I agree that the NeoGAF thing might be simple speculation and have a weak or no basis, but me and my common sense don't buy Sega Europe's explanation either. It's simply not credible that the main thing holding up the remake is a bunch of licensed stuff that they could retexture in the blink of an eye (and, in fact, they did in some cases with the Dreamcast releases like Jet Cola).

The reason has to be another, maybe they don't find it financially viable, or they are busy in other projects they consider more profitable, or whatever. And the NeoGAF rumour is indeed credible, just by paying attention to Shenmue ending credits and seeing a very long list of logos of (mostly unknown) companies.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:44 pm

Centrale wrote:I appreciate you taking the time to provide those quotes. And I explained to you why your interpretation of those quotes is no more factual than anyone else's. "Pretty non-ambiguous" equals factual and indisputable to you, duly noted.

A community manager is essentially the boss of the forum moderators, not someone who would know or be allowed to comment on technical issues. The middleware licensing explanation is more logical than not being able to get permission to use the image of a Timex watch holding up the entire project - that's why that explanation continues to be considered. It's not really a "winnable" argument in any case, as none of us have the official answer.

You keep ignoring that I provided a comment from SEGA's European COO too.

I think you're underselling the role of Dan Sheridan at SEGA. This wasn't an off-the-cuff comment, it was a question specifically picked out and addressed in a pre-recorded video. Those comments were cleared for broadcast by higher ups in one way or another. Dan Sheridan directly addressed the Shenmue question by choice, and Jurgen Post brought up Shenmue in that MVC interview entirely unprompted, and the reason for why it hasn't happened yet is consistent across both comments.

Also, I guarantee you, if the problem was as dire as middleware licencing problems, SEGA would not be talking about Shenmue HD until these issues were solved, period. Product licencing is a speedbump, middleware licencing is a brick wall.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Spaghetti » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:54 pm

Again, I'm going to bring up the quotes, but I'll use bold again for emphasis.

"The issue is that it is a big game. It is a project from many years ago. If we are to do it, we’d want to do a fantastic conversion to the current platforms, and there are a lot of licences in the game, which were cleared many years ago, so we will need to renegotiate those contracts. We are looking into it. We haven’t given it a green light, but it has our full attention.”


"With regards to Shenmue (one) and II HD, of course we would love to release these tomorrow. Sadly it's not as simple as porting the games to the current platforms, as we would need to ensure any HD remaster lived up to quality of the original titles, and with games as immersive as Shenmue (one) and II, there are further complications from licenced products that were included in the original games.

That said, we would love to do it, and are currently investigating how to make it a reality."


Sheridan's quote is more pertinent to the issue, but Post mostly reiterates it. Post's use of "cleared" is again evidence to this being an issue of the licenced brands. You don't clear a licence for middleware, you purchase it. You clear a licence when including an outside brand.

But anyway, rightly or wrongly, they want to do a faithful remaster, and arguably that involves trying to include the licenced products for the sense of immersion, but also in how they're kind of a part of Shenmue's character so to speak.

Whether you buy it or not is irrelevant. The information is coming from within SEGA, one source of which is at the top of the European chain, who are notable for their PC focus and their porting work (Sonic Generations, Binary Domain were all ported by a UK studio, Valkyria Chronicles PC was spearheaded by SEGA Europe allegedly).

They're going to talk more about ports in early 2017. So buckle up for now.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Centrale » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:09 pm

Spaghetti wrote:You keep ignoring that I provided a comment from SEGA's European COO too.

...
Product licencing is a speedbump, middleware licencing is a brick wall.


I didn't ignore it; as I said before Jurgen's comment was as non-specific as Dan Sheridan's. One thing we can agree on is your assessment that middleware licensing would be a much more difficult issue to resolve than product placement. That's the main reason why I personally see it as a more credible explanation, as we've already seen Sega make minor (Ferrari logo) and drastic (Crazy Taxi soundtrack) moves to re-release games with licensed in-game content. But I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a completely insurmountable challenge. It would just take time to sort through the various middleware products and determine whether it would be more economical to track down the current rights holders to re-license them or to pay the HD development team to re-write/replace those tools.

Spaghetti wrote:Sheridan's quote is more pertinent to the issue, but Post mostly reiterates it. Post's use of "cleared" is again evidence to this being an issue of the licenced brands. You don't clear a licence for middleware, you purchase it. You clear a licence when including an outside brand.


To me that's just ambiguous. "Clear" isn't legal terminology, the person was just using a figure of speech for a public statement.

In any case, I feel I've said my piece. You seem a little wound up about trying to prove your own interpretation as "right" whereas I'm simply demonstrating that both opinions are a matter of interpretation and speculation and so, whether or not you're arguing with me or someone else, you can expect the issue of middleware to continue to be a matter of discussion.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Kiske » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:38 pm

To me, the HD situation is pretty basic.

1. No matter what the obstacles may be (software or products licences), IF Sega wants to, Sega will do the remasters.

2. Sega is not going to do the remasters to please the fans but to make money, or at least to make enough money so they win on both "image" and "financial" sides.

3. Shenmue 3 is a great opportunity for Sega to bring back the Shenmue licence. It's like a second chance.

4. Some could argue that if Sega wanted a second chance for the franchise, they could have published Shenmue 3 by themself. Giving Yu the licence for the third episode was (is) a smart way to offer this chance without taking the financial risk. It's like saying to Yu Suzuki "Do your Kickstarter thing and let's see what happens."
We all know what happend and we never heard so much about Shenmue from Sega in 14 years compared to what they said since E3 2015.

5. One of my fear about HD remasters (and Shenmue 3) is that (maybe) Sega wants now to see how the project is evolving and what Yu will be able to achieve, before putting too much efforts into remastering Shenmue 1 and 2. That could lead the remasters to come out after Shenmue 3 in the "best" worst case scenario.

Now to go back to the actual position of Sega, I think that the first goal of what Jurgen Post said in that interview (considering what Sherridan said previously) is... to buy time.

Nobody knows if Shenmue 3 will make it for a 2017 release, maybe not even Yu Suzuki.
If Sega wants to announce/release the remasters short before Shenmue 3 is released (let's say 3 to 6 month?) in order to take advantage of the "momentum" for the franchise, they need to have some guaranteed release date.

Of course, my whole theory is based on the fact that the HD remasters are coming.
(I wrote 10/10 remember :mrgreen: )
Maybe I'm totally wrong there, but I definitely don't believe that Sega will wait after Shenmue 3 to announce/release them. It would be too late.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Hazuki00 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:58 am

What I think is Shenmue 3 sales could be affected by the no release of Shenmue 1 /2 hd before Shenmue 3 launch. I know some people who want to try first Shenmue 1/2 before buying Shenmue 3.
Last edited by Hazuki00 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby shredingskin » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:31 am

I don't see the "clear" part.

You can license a middleware product (and need to licence it to use it again), you might think it's just brands, but it might be software product as well.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Spaghetti » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:45 am

Centrale wrote:You seem a little wound up about trying to prove your own interpretation as "right" whereas I'm simply demonstrating that both opinions are a matter of interpretation and speculation and so, whether or not you're arguing with me or someone else, you can expect the issue of middleware to continue to be a matter of discussion.

No, I just think you're being willfully obtuse in the face of direct statements from SEGA staff that are clearly talking about the licenced brands in the game.

But if you want to stick with a single unsubstantiated forum post as your bastion of information, go right ahead. I can't really stop you for reveling in, frankly, ignorance.
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Re: Lets Talk Shenmue HD

Postby Spaghetti » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:54 am

And again, if this was a case of middleware licencing, SEGA would not be talking about Shenmue HD at all. Product licencing is a temporary delay with a viable Plan B if things don't work out, middleware licencing would kill the project stone dead if not solved. Everybody would be gagged to avoid a repeat of what happened when that SEGA rep bungled an answer around the time Jet Set Radio HD was coming out and implied Shenmue and Skies of Arcadia were next, and you certainly wouldn't see someone with the seniority of Jurgen Post mentioning the project unprompted.

Either the issues have been cleared up, or the problem never existed at all.
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