Sega Must Believe....Because We Do

[lukeydook]

lets face it, even the shittiest of titles are seeing store shelves such as Kane and Lynch and Army of 2 simply because they know that sex and violence sells... But why should that matter anymore? Why cant a company like SEGA distinguish itself and rise above by giving audiences something they truly deserve? Art... Sure there are those who have theyre opinions and say its too expensive or not appealing but does any of that truly matter, when there are fans like us who are so loyal and have been these 10 long years. Ive stood in lines for Halo 2 and 3. played gta4, call of duty modern warfare 1 and 2 online, and bested just about every POPULAR game out there.... But none Have had and effect on my imagination and heart the way Shenmue has....Its given me a little taste of Japan, China, and so much more and in a way I felt like I was right there on the Journey with Ryo. If its all about the money... we will never see shenmue again... if its all about the Legacy....Yu Suzuki and Sega will RISE UP and give us Shenmue 3 and we will be forever greatful...
Thanks Yu
Thanks Sega
-The Fans

[Riku Rose]

Money.

/Thread.

[Fenix]

I believe in Shenmue and Yu Suzuki but I don't believe in Sega. Even less in Sammy.

[Wanderin']

Well, this really is the core of the Shenmue argument as it currently stands isn't it? That we in fact 'believe' forevermore that one day a final core Shenmue game will come out but that Sega-Sammy's actions over the last few years affords us little hope with which to fuel that constant vigil for Shenmue 3.

And yet we do have every right to be dissappointed in and downright upset with Sega-Sammy for their inaction regarding the remainder of the Shenmue saga. The core argument I mentioned previously is this: Shenmue fans have and always will substantially demonstrate that they very much so want and will pay for Shenmue 3 as a product from Sega (for example, the very fact that this fansite continues to run today despite the games' release 10 years ago, all of the various petition campaigns, and of course the very recent Mike Hayes 'never say never' comment, honestly - no other game has ever had petition campaigns, for pete's sake!, etc.) no matter how many years have passed (since 1999, baby, since 1999) but Sega-Sammy refuses to respond to their very own consumer demands even though they honestly have never had a realistic reason(s) to not make Shenmue 3! .

The paradigm shift we need to consider currently is the fact that the fear of Shenmue 3 costing too much to make and/or not making any profits is quite frankly an outdated and bankrupt excuse for Sega-Sammy. We don't have to debate this. After all:

A) almost any existing game engine available today (ex. Sega's own Yakuza engine, Unreal engine, etc.) is more than capable of creating the worlds that Suzuki struggled to program for with 10 year old Dreamcast software. And it goes in hand that the use of such pre-existing engines should not incur costs that are any more than what it costs to make an average contemporary game (ie. nowhere near the original 70 million), or

B) almost all of us agree that the original Dreamcast graphics are still serviceable today, and we have almost all gone on record saying that we would accept an HD Dreamcast software developed Shenmue 3 in a heartbeat. Developing with Dreamcast/PS2/XBOX quality software would surely incur only modest expenses in this day and age and they could even release it as very cost efficient XBL andor PSN downloads if they wanted. Additionally, we wouldn't need the so-called modern reboot many have asked for if we go the HD Dreamcast route - Suzuki can just release a "Complete Collection" package that includes Shenmue 1, 2, and 3 together as remastered HD Dreamcast/PS2/XBOX quality games so that anyone who picks it up has everything they need to enjoy the entire saga as a whole and gets THREE full quality games. Besides, what with God of War, ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, Sly Cooper, XBL Perfect Dark, HD remasters of last generation games is actually entirely en vogue at the moment.

Heck - I'd be perfectly fine with the HD compilation releasing exclusively for the Wii. The Wii's capabilities and engine are a very good fit for HD Dreamcast software and motion control would be entirely optional - after all, many of Wii's current top titles are/can be/actually play better as conventional controller (ex. Gamecube Controller) games (ex. GoldenEye 2010, Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom, Smash Brothers, etc.). But, since PSN and XBL will be getting downloadable Dreamcast games soon, once again there is no reason why Shenmue 3 couldn't be on any of the systems.

So. The ball has and always will be in Sega's court. Shenmue 3 would only be as expensive and extravagant as they wanted it to be - and if we'd all accept a properly developed Shenmue 3 with just Dreamcast software, then cost should not be an issue at all. As for actual profits - once again I point to the recent Mike Hayes 'never say never' comment. The fans have and always will commit to buying a finale for Shenmue. Instead of trying to think of how to market Shenmue to more people, Sega needs to adequately accomodate the market for Shenmue that they already have - the Shenmue fans. And you know what would be a pretty good first step to doing that? Make the dern game already! You make it Sega, we buy it, you shut us all up for once. Sounds like a plan to me, at least.

And finally, if you'd let me indulge my idealism a little bit further, it feels to me like Shenmue 3 almost has to come out now. I mean, Sega has run out of excuses - all the major gaming publications and sites post an article about Shenmue 3's absence almost on a yearly basis, Mike Hayes' comment may seem pithy and inconsequential at first glance - but it is actually an inadvertantly (on Hayes' part, perhaps) official acknowledgement by Sega that they know that there has always been a great passion and demand for Shenmue 3 (regardless of whether he knew it or not, Hayes' potential slip of the tongue shows that Sega knows we want it but chooses directly to ignore us and distance its fan base even more by not making it), the profit issue is an outdated idea, and All Stars Racing and Suzuki's current revival for Shenmue City all show that passion for the series has never waned over the last 10+ years. Besides, like I mentioned what with Sega's downloadable Dreamcast games and the possibility of a 'complete saga' release, there are actually a lot of potentially lucrative market opportunities that the Shenmue legend may afford Sega.

Even more so however, is irregardless of how much a complete Shenmue saga release could make for Sega, I imagine that would pale in comparison to the restoring of faith in Shenmue fans, traditional Sega fans, and long time gaming publications alike when someone at Sega finally has the courage to allow Yu Suzuki to fulfill the promise of a complete saga that he made to devoted fans over 10 years ago. Sega, in my estimation, would certainly deserve praise for that.

[Oppy]

Good post,
but this is wrong:

Heck - I'd be perfectly fine with the HD compilation releasing exclusively for the Wii. The Wii's capabilities and engine are a very good fit for HD Dreamcast software and motion control would be entirely optional.

Wii cant to HD. fin.

[Wanderin']

Hey. Yeah, come to think of it, Wii can't do HD graphics. However, although with the coming downloadable Dreamcast games coming to PSN and XBL making an HD Dreamcast powered Shenmue 3 more likely for 360 and PS3, I would most certainly not mind even if Sega and Suzuki decided to do the 'complete collection' idea for the Wii - so long as they actually guarantee that they'd do it.

But, irregardless of which platform it comes out on (remember, heck, even PSP or NDS are viable possibilities...) this still goes to show that Sega has everything that it needs to make a Shenmue 3 because it could be made on any of the current systems and conce again, only be as expensive as they want it to be.

Really Sega - I honestly don't see many obstacles at the moment for a Shenmue 3/Shenmue Complete Collection project at the moment. Irregardless of how well it scored or how well it sold, Shenmue is considered by any traditional gamer (well, any gamer old enough to remember Dreamcast and the Sega of old that went with it) as one of Sega's premier projects. This, along with the fact that it has been absent for more than a decade, and the fact that series revivals are all the rage at the moment, already gives Sega a great base for promotion/marketing. Admittedly, due to the nascent nature of the gaming industry back in the early Dreamcast days not many people knew about Dreamcast and Shenmue. But, marketing Shenmue as a cinematic, story driven, Hong Kong style kung-fu action-adventure rpg (which it always was) with relatively open-ended gameplay (which I suspect would be made even more open-ended when Shenmue 3 is developed as a game with today's standards) would probably already garner it a pretty good audience today.

Throw on the tag line "As the Saga began, so must it Conclude. Finish the Story on X.XX.XXXX" (or something along those lines...) And while you tease the heck out of fans and newly intrigued gamers alike with periodic development progress trailers and nicely done up retrospective trailers about Shenmue 1 and 2 that tease gamers with more of the high points of each game, Sega can release Shenmue 1 and 2 HD remastered versions either as PSN or XBL downloads or as a hardcopy collection while leading us up to Shenmue 3. Or, as I had said earlier, tease the entire, whole dern saga as one so people get pumped to buy a "Complete Collection" HD remaster package when the time comes.

Gosh, once again I really see no reason why not to release this in the near future. Again, it would all only cost Sega as much as they wanted to commit to it, and I continue to believe that Shenmue was so ahead of its time that popularity and interest in its gameplay elements have only caught up now, in terms of most average gamers (ie. gamers beyond the existing Shenmue fans). Elements that I may touch on in an additional post.

[Wanderin']

So. Gameplay elements that were ahead of its time. As I have said elsewhere, I want to point out that when games like Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout 3, BioShock, Heavy Rain, etc. first came out, I wasn't necessarily particularly surprised. That is not to say I wasn't impressed by them. After all - they are all high quality games that are absolutely excellent to play.

But - the core framework behind them all as 'next-generation' fully cinematic and interactive story driven emotional experiences, in my estimation, had already been done before - with Shenmue. Now - before even I start to slap myself senseless for making such a seemingly naive statement, let me qualify it a little further. This is not to say that I think Shenmue is any way better than any of the aforementioned titles. In fact, I'd rather not try to rank them because they are all ultimately distinct and unique titles apart from each other. But, the immersive experience that each game offers - the fact that each conversation becomes somewhat of a cinematic cutscene, that each world is fully rendered in 3D and allows players to explore them fully by examining each character and item in detail, fully orchestrated soundtracks, movie quality cutscenes, and the fact that players always have a little choice in determining what they will immediately do next despite the fact that the player is still ultimately being forced down a pre-determined story towards its scripted end was done before - over ten years ago with the first Shenmue, even though it did cost Suzuki and Co. 70 million+ dollars at that time to pull off all of these programming feats.

So, that brings us to the idea that Shenmue as a game with its game systems may very well be favourably received by contemporary gamers who aren't already Shenmue fans but have been 'raised' as it were on today's Mass Effects and Fallouts. Elsewhere in the Shenmue 3 forum is an ongoing discussion about whether Shenmue's fighting system needs to be updated for today's standards. Here I might borrow some of that discussion when talking about how Shenmue's existing gameplay features are still appealing today or how they might be enhanced for today:

A) Shenmue's original fighting system was incredibly well done, in my opinion. Here I am not necessarily saying that it felt good or that it was wildly fun (even though I did think it was...), but that Suzuki was very innovative about it. Like an RPG (lite) Ryo was able to learn a huge number of moves that players were able to swap out and map to various button combinations at a whim. I thought this was a complete revelation because I had a fair degree of freedom to customize and level/train my distinct Ryo with the moves that I liked to use/was most proficient at using best - and so the game did allow you to customize and uniquely develope and train your own character in a relatively free-form manner. And because all the moves ranged from punches, kicks, combos, throws, to parries you could button mash away with the most powerful moves or choose to make it play as dramatically as you wanted with flashy parries and counter throws - the choice is up to the player. Throw in some of the things from the combat improvement forum like jumping, ducking, multi-level/elevation fighting, and the ability to pick up and throw/interact with nearby chairs and bottles, for example and I think we have the making of a fun and interesting fighting system for Shenmue 3.

On the other hand, Shenmue can also be ragged on for the fact that it doesn't necessarily have a lot of fighting (at least in Shenmue 1 and 2). But, I want to say that that is only the case because the overall storyboarding for the first 2 games did not necessarily call for heavy fighting. After all, an appropriate amount of fighting action was present, and when it did occur it made sense in the scheme of what was going on in the story. As Shenmue 3 progresses and Ryo faces more physical challenges as he gets closer and closer to Lan Di and the Chiyoumen, I imagine more combat would sensibly figure into the plot.

Additionally, as we make Shenmue 3 going forward, there are logical opportunities to add more fighting to the game within the context of Shenmue. Perhaps more classic Shenmue style free form 'mini-games' or quests will be added where Ryo can take up a gig as a bodyguard at a bar (in Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong again?, etc.), or as a classic underground street fighter. Moreover, given the advancing plot, it wouldn't be entirely out of the question if at one point in Shenmue 3 Ryo teams up with a triad/gang that is attempting to rival the Chiyoumen with noble intentions and forces the player to engage in a higher proportion of fighting as the story comes to a head with everyone vying for the secrets of the mirrors and wanting Ryo's head - dead or alive. This ccould play out like the random encounter element in Yakuza (even though I am not too crazy about random encounters in Shenmue) but hopefully the game would be immersive enough so that it doesn't need to 'load' a combat area for fighting like Yakuza, where street goers for some reason encircle the player and his/her assailants in a ring of people that cannot be broken out of (ie. real time battles load up on the spot in the streets where Chiyoumen thugs spot Ryo and that is where the fight takes place).

B) More free-form/roaming gameplay. In my estimation, even though Shenmue 1 and 2 were largely linear adventures, the general 'flow' of the game was very free-form. For example, if Ryo had to make enough money to enter a fight or talk to someone, it was up to the player to decide how to make that money. Why not man a Lucky Hit stand for a daily wage? Or maybe work at Joy's shipping company? Maybe enter some underground street fights? Or my personal favourite - gamble a week away at the shady Roll It On Top stand in the filthy alley behind the destitue Come On Over Guest House that Ryo was put up in - it will always bring a smile to my face when I remember how Ryo sailed all the way to Hong Kong from his little home in Yokosuka like a shining Samurai to seek revenge for his father's death only to become an addicted gambler in a shady alleyway, saving and re-loading, when necessary, to get the money he needed.

And when you needed to find the next piece of evidence to advance Ryo's ongoing investigations, yes, you generally knew who you ultimately needed to talk to/see, but it was quite open-ended in that you could ask anyone on the streets and they would all give you some piece of information that would point you in the right direction - it was never just 'talk ONLY to person A so that the game will load person B for you to talk to'. Instead, there were always several different NPCs and/or events programmed that could give Ryo enough information to advance his investigation.

As for expanding on this open-world gameplay, there are many ways to do so within the context of Shenmue. Someone mentioned how the open-ended conversation system in Shenmue 2 was a great step in the right direction, I concur. In Shenmue 2, you could ask any NPC for directions to locations, or for any info pertaining to whatever investigation Ryo was conducting at the moment. They could expand this, so that Ryo can always ask about jobs in the area in general, local area news (for quests), areas for training his moves, and so on and so forth. Imagine being able to score a job in a little wonton house for cash making and QTE shenanigans, learning that there are various side quests that may lead you to more story details, or throwing in an intricate system of secret dojos and kung fu masters to be found so that Ryo may not necessarily learn all the games' moves in one playing or learning secret moves of immense powers only after some good old fashioned open ended RPG questing, talking, and strategy guide using.

3) Ok, ok. This is too long, right?!? I'm just saying that there is so much in Shenmue that was ahead of its time and would most likely be very attractive to gamers today. Think about a 'yin and yang' system. We all know Ryo is ultimately a 'good guy' - but it could add more freedom if players decide to resolve discussions or fights with brutal combat moves, or with deliberate disarming moves/parries. This goes hand in hand with Xiuying's "Kung fu is for protecting others and not for harm," quote and is admittedly similar to a BioWare good/bad morality system - but the difference here is that the yin/yang system builds up based on your direct actions and not just conversation choices (ie. you decide to parry and avoid an enemy's moves instead of attacking him with intent to maim) and would affect things like whether a kung fu master chooses to teach you or not. Or how about saving up enough money at said wonton joint job (or through Roll It On Top, baby!) to buy a pedal bicycle for use on city streets? Or clothing customization that is in character with Ryo (ex. take off leather jacket, different sneakers, different watches, different t-shirts, etc.)

Alright, alright. Whatever. All I wanted to point out here is that Sega truly has no excuse not to finish the saga, now or soon. Shenmue has what it takes to work in today's gaming industry - but if they wait too long, this window of opportunity may and most likely will dissappear forever. IMHO - Sega needs to make this thing now before Shenmue fans' opinion of them drops too low and this whole issue becomes a permanent dissapointment in Sega's history. It's fine for Sega to keep saying they don't have current plans at the moment - but when the fans have never stopped asking for it, cost is truly not an issue for making it, and the fact that Shenmue can work today, they need to make it sooner and not later.

[Riku Rose]

^You need to stop making evrey post a novel. I don't think I've read any of your posts their to damn long.

[mrandyk]

^You need to stop making evrey post a novel. I don't think I've read any of your posts their to damn long.

You must be pretty dense or ignorant, you probably also think Chinese Democracy is the greatest album ever judging by your avatar so its to be expected.

[Coolz]

^You need to stop making evrey post a novel. I don't think I've read any of your posts their to damn long.

If you had read them, you would see that they were perfectly intelligible posts with a fair few good ideas and observations. Be a bit more patient and actually read the posts?

[Riku Rose]

^You need to stop making evrey post a novel. I don't think I've read any of your posts their to damn long.

You must be pretty dense or ignorant, you probably also think Chinese Democracy is the greatest album ever judging by your avatar so its to be expected.

Nope that title goes to Appetite For Destruction. But Chinese Democracy was fucking amazing. Then again I shouldn't need to tell you this since you seem to know evreything about me just from my avatar.

[mrandyk]

^You need to stop making evrey post a novel. I don't think I've read any of your posts their to damn long.

You must be pretty dense or ignorant, you probably also think Chinese Democracy is the greatest album ever judging by your avatar so its to be expected.

Nope that title goes to Appetite For Destruction. But Chinese Democracy was fucking amazing. Then again I shouldn't need to tell you this since you seem to know evreything about me just from my avatar.

Well its a picture of modern day Axl Rose, led me to believe you are one of those idiots from MyGNR who worship the man no matter how badly he treats his fans while being completely ignorant in every single discussion they participate in. Glad to hear you see the light though, AFD is my favorite album too.

[Panda_rapist]

^ lol a little of topic, but i have to agree, im sure wanderin has interesting things to say but you should try to make it shorter, most people dont care what anyone has to say on a forum they just want to say there own views so if they see all that, they really wont bother reading it,

[Riku Rose]

Well its a picture of modern day Axl Rose, led me to believe you are one of those idiots from MyGNR who worship the man no matter how badly he treats his fans while being completely ignorant in every single discussion they participate in. Glad to hear you see the light though, AFD is my favorite album too.

I could talk all day about GNR but this isn't the place.

[mrandyk]

Well its a picture of modern day Axl Rose, led me to believe you are one of those idiots from MyGNR who worship the man no matter how badly he treats his fans while being completely ignorant in every single discussion they participate in. Glad to hear you see the light though, AFD is my favorite album too.

I could talk all day about GNR but this isn't the place.

Well, its not like there is anything else that hasnt been discussed to hell to talk about lol.