Kickstarter Update #47

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby mjq jazz bar » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:53 pm

They're making "less" of a game based on some early shots that'll never be seen again when the game comes out. People around here just enjoy worrying.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Zoltor » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:58 pm

mjq jazz bar wrote: They're making "less" of a game based on some early shots that'll never be seen again when the game comes out. People around here just enjoy worrying.



Yes they are, they're spending money trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of just fine tuning it.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby shredingskin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:10 pm

There are lots of things:

- UE (and most 3d engines) have realtime global illumination, that wasn't used in DC era.
- In Shenmue bumpmapping as far as I know weren't even in use, today we have PBR materials for everything.
- Even while Shenmue was written in c++, UE has it's own libraries (in c++ also), so porting code is not just copy/paste, it's not just "fine tunning", they have to read the code (if they can) and see what works and how to use UE language better. Also their engine had their own language, so it's a matter of translating what could speed up the development.
- They SHOULD (IMO) use what tools they have to make the best game they can.
- Post rendering shaders are something common today, "camera effects" were almost impossible back then.
- UE has also the physics engine libs in their engine, they have to work with that and not "around that", so a lot of what Shenmue did in terms of fighting will have to change in some way.

Yeah, it's not going to look the same, and it's not going to feel the same, but it can be better. Let's not just be fundamentalist for the sake of being fundamentalists.

Also, the camera angles, lens effects and post effects in those pics are to make things look better (and not give out that it's a built in test scene).

Let's give Yu the benefit of being one of the greatest game developers around and he knows what he is doing.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby ys » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:29 pm

The beta screenshots from Shenmue I and II were also quite different compared to the final product. In this case now, we're not even close to the final production stage. Besides that, out of these three months, most of it seems to have been used for planning, story boards etc. So I personally prefer to wait and see for the moment.

Also, Yu is someone who cares a lot about details so things could still change a lot. Someone caring about the right feeling/smell/humidity of a gaming engine probably doesn't ignore things like the look of the protagonist.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Anonymous81 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:51 pm

Zoltor wrote:
Anonymous81 wrote: I think those hoping for a Ryo that looks just like he did in S1&2 but just with much higher detail and resolution may be disappointed. The technology being used is going to result in a qualitatively different look and feel, no matter how close they try to approximate it.

It's a bit like - and this is a horrible analogy but - the Creation suite in a wrestling game or an RPG being upgraded from one installment in a series to the next, and trying to create the same character you played as in a previous game. No matter how close the dimensions and proportions and features get, it's never going to look exactly the same.

A better analogy might be Zoe from Dreamfall Chapters versus her model in Dreamfall: The Longest Journey. (With the former being another Kickstarted game, albeit made in Unity rather than UE.) While the new model is - imho - recognizable as Zoe, the way her face animates among other design considerations fundamentally alters the way she looks. No matter how stylized, there's no way for them to really perfectly reproduce the original look and animation of the first iteration of her character. And that's before you even consider intentional changes or updates they might have made.

I suspect this will be true of Ryo as well. I do think he will improve, but I don't expect him to have super thin lips and a semi-permanent scowl like he did on Dreamcast. Different times, different technologies, different tools, different aesthetic considerations.

Personally, that won't bother me. I just want Shenmue 3. :P But I do understand why others feel more adamant about it.



This is just a perfect example of how new technologies, Isn't always a good thing.

The really sad thing is, they're making less of a game then they could be making, just because they're using these "new" technologies that is doing nothing, but actually taking away from the "organic", realistic feel.


I disagree, and do not want that conclusion associated with my post, incidentally. I respect your opinion, however.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby shredingskin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:54 pm

About Anonymous81 post, I liked more the first KS version of Zoe, more realistic, but for a cyberpunk game I kinda like that look.

So yeah, different people picture things different.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby SheepheadCG » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:07 pm

It really is surprising to me how much negativity there is here.

Like seriously... I am so damn happy that Shenmue 3 is even coming. There are some people in here who really need to take a step back and just remember that! 4 months ago we would have killed to get the smallest bit of new info about our favourite game franchise. The game is now being made, and people are crying about how some super super early development shots, (which are even using included assets from the engine) don't meet their expectations...

WHO CARES!!! It's going to change, and even once it has, it probably won't look like how you want it to or how you imagined it to... but you know what!?! Yu Suzuki, the Legend, who created the best 2 games of all time, has created a game for you. A game that you have wanted for 15 years. We will finally leave the Cave in Guilin, we will continue the story of Ryo's revenge, and not only will we have a Shenmue 3, but there is now now a pretty good chance we will have a Shenmue 4.

Think about where we have come from, and where we are heading. We are getting the game we always dreamed of, from the original creator. We are in good hands people... That's what the kickstarter updates remind me of!

(That screeny of the house with the thatched roof tho... *Jizzed everywhere*).

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby shredingskin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:12 pm

Nah, you're wrong, you should be kinda pissed that Shenmue III is being made.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby mjq jazz bar » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:13 pm

Zoltor wrote:
mjq jazz bar wrote: They're making "less" of a game based on some early shots that'll never be seen again when the game comes out. People around here just enjoy worrying.



Yes they are, they're spending money trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of just fine tuning it.

So you actually believe they should use a game engine and graphics from a Dreamcast game for a game that's coming out in 2017? :roll:
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby shredingskin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:17 pm

mjq jazz bar wrote:
Zoltor wrote:
mjq jazz bar wrote: They're making "less" of a game based on some early shots that'll never be seen again when the game comes out. People around here just enjoy worrying.



Yes they are, they're spending money trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of just fine tuning it.

So you actually believe they should use a game engine and graphics from a Dreamcast game for a game that's coming out in 2017? :roll:


It's really hard to port an engine, they're made for different architectures.

We need emulators to play on pc games made for pc nowdays.

It's not just "engine", there are real problems there.

I think Yu will do an awesome job.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Zoltor » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:35 pm

shredingskin wrote:
mjq jazz bar wrote:
Zoltor wrote:
mjq jazz bar wrote: They're making "less" of a game based on some early shots that'll never be seen again when the game comes out. People around here just enjoy worrying.



Yes they are, they're spending money trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of just fine tuning it.

So you actually believe they should use a game engine and graphics from a Dreamcast game for a game that's coming out in 2017? :roll:


It's really hard to port an engine, they're made for different architectures.

We need emulators to play on pc games made for pc nowdays.

It's not just "engine", there are real problems there.

I think Yu will do an awesome job.



If possible, why not. All the heads to characters that had a mold made for them, still looks more realistic then any char heads in video game history. If that can't be done now, they should just use the original DC engine, and just fix the bodies up more.

However realistically, I expect Yu to stop messing around with trying to CG things from the ground up, that he shouldn't be doing.

Why he Isn't just redigitising the heads, I have no idea. Yu still has the original Clay Busts, he should just rescan them into the computer, but It's clear he's just trying to build such from scratch, which naturally the atrocious results speak for them selves(any worse, and unnatural, the characters would look like Pixar char).

Yu seems to be fascinated with all the so called new technologies, but the fact is, a lot of the so called improvements, are not better, they are far, far, far worse. Don't fix, what Isn't broken Yu. Just because something is newer, doesn't mean It's a improvement Yu.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby killthesagabeforeitkillsu » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:48 pm

I think if they could use the Dreamcast Shenmue engine, they would. Most of the AI work done there is priceless.

But that thing is handcrafted for the system and isn't compatible with the PS4/PC.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby shredingskin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:54 pm

Zoltor wrote:If possible, why not. All the heads to characters that had a mold made for them, still looks more realistic then any char heads in video game history. If that can't be done now, they should just use the original DC engine, and just fix the bodies up more.

However realistically, I expect Yu to stop messing around with trying to CG things from the ground up, that he shouldn't be doing.

Why he Isn't just redigitising the heads, I have no idea. Yu still has the original Clay Busts, he should just rescan them into the computer, but It's clear he's just trying to build such from scratch, which naturally the atrocious results speak for them selves(any worse, and unnatural, the characters would look like Pixar char).

Yu seems to be fascinated with all the so called new technologies, but the fact is, a lot of the so called improvements, are not better, they are far, far, far worse. Don't fix, what Isn't broken Yu.


They can't "use the DC engine", it was made for the DC hard architecture, that's why they do the same wrap for a lot of pc-DC ports.

He's not trying to do "CG shit", UE has realtime global lighting that affects everything in the scene that couldn't be done before and all was baked with some point lights, it's part of how things are done now, everything has a normal map and secondary maps to make the details, it's going to be more detailed, they'll probably still use the original concept/bust, but lights and materials will react very different (am I wrong, but doesn't UE4 has a default skin shader ?), to lights.

They can still try to get the "feel" of original shen, but does that mean non-realtime lighting, mostly static shadows, homogenous skin shader, a diffuse only map for faces, why ?

It's may not look as Shenmue, it will look different, but it can be better.

It's not the last Ryo model, he said he'll make Shenhua better. Let's give him time. He was always a tech nerd, maybe he'll give us another representation of what he thought all these years ago.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Tuet0ne » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:55 pm

Man those screenshots look absolutely amazing...... Cannot wait!
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Himuro » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:16 pm

Zoltor wrote:
Himuro wrote:
Zoltor wrote:
Anonymous81 wrote: I think those hoping for a Ryo that looks just like he did in S1&2 but just with much higher detail and resolution may be disappointed. The technology being used is going to result in a qualitatively different look and feel, no matter how close they try to approximate it.

It's a bit like - and this is a horrible analogy but - the Creation suite in a wrestling game or an RPG being upgraded from one installment in a series to the next, and trying to create the same character you played as in a previous game. No matter how close the dimensions and proportions and features get, it's never going to look exactly the same.

A better analogy might be Zoe from Dreamfall Chapters versus her model in Dreamfall: The Longest Journey. (With the former being another Kickstarted game, albeit made in Unity rather than UE.) While the new model is - imho - recognizable as Zoe, the way her face animates among other design considerations fundamentally alters the way she looks. No matter how stylized, there's no way for them to really perfectly reproduce the original look and animation of the first iteration of her character. And that's before you even consider intentional changes or updates they might have made.

I suspect this will be true of Ryo as well. I do think he will improve, but I don't expect him to have super thin lips and a semi-permanent scowl like he did on Dreamcast. Different times, different technologies, different tools, different aesthetic considerations.

Personally, that won't bother me. I just want Shenmue 3. :P But I do understand why others feel more adamant about it.



This is just a perfect example of how new technologies, Isn't always a good thing.

The really sad thing is, they're making less of a game then they could be making, just because they're using these "new" technologies that is doing nothing, but actually taking away from the "organic", realistic feel.



You got all of that, based on what exactly? You say this and get Kid NoCon's HD videos have the Shenmue flair but is made with these new technologies? If you're going to make the statement that the new tech takes away from the organic and realistic feel, you'll have to back that opinion up with actual facts.



Well Kid NoCon's video's didn't have characters or anything of the sort, nor did it try anything fancy with lighting effects.


With the screen shots in this thread, I see nothing wrong with the last SS really, with the house. CG, and anything living has always been a recipe for disaster, especially when they're more focused on using newer technology, for no good reason.

Is it such a hard thing, to just bloody improve/build upon what already exists?


Good Lord. How old are you? You couldn't be a day older than 17 with that sort of "logic".

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