S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

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S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby johnvivant » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:25 pm

I recently found this very impressive demo of Longmire Locomotion's Advanced Locomotion System V1 for Unreal4 . With some minor adjustments I feel it would perfect for Shenmue 3 imo.
phpBB [video]


Briefly my idea of Shenmue 3 movement would be as follows:

Full 360 3d movement and 360 camera movement by default, aka Yakuza, LA noire etc BUT; if you partially depress the L2 trigger Ryo goes into 'strafe style' movement similar to a third person shooter, with the camera moving directly behind Ryo in the classic style of the originals, aka. with FULL REAR PROFILE (NOT OVERSHOULDER). you then control Ryo's gaze with the right stick much like the originals except you wouldn't lose full movement control in the process.

When the L trigger is fully depressed you zoom into first person mode where you can lock onto objects and interact with them just like the originals. (you can also stay locked into first person mode by pressing R3 without needing to keep L2 depressed)

Dedicated jumping wouldn't be necessary, but there would be many contextual based interactions, like climbing and vaulting which you perform by pressing R2.

Exact controls:
L stick - 360 3d movement walk/jog
R stick - 360 camera, (controls gaze while in L2 strafe mode)
L2 -trigger - strafe movement style, camera zoom/lock on, first person if depressed fully
R2- trigger - hold to sprint while pushing forward on L stick, also allows you to push through crowds, also other contextual movement based actions (vaulting, climbing ect.)
R3 - toggle into first person mode (without needing to hold L2)
L1 - view wrist watch, then press square to activate the back-light, or press x to initiate time-skip feature.
R1- press to look in direction of NPC partner, double tap to call NPC partner, keep button held when next to Shenhua to hold her hand and lead her
X - speak, confirm, read signs - hold to bring up dialogue tree
O- assign inventory object to this button to show to npcs, to get more information about it, or give as gift or other.
Square - general context based interaction, e.g. open doors, interact with vendors, insert sword of seven stars into plinth etc.
Triangle - inventory, hold to view move list
Options - pause
Touch pad button - open notebook, turn pages by swiping left/right
hold touch pad button to open map
D-pad - classic dreamcast movement

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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Himuro » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:22 am

Sprint should L2 like in 1 IMO.
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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Suzuki Yu » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:25 pm

johnvivant wrote:Briefly my idea of Shenmue 3 movement would be as follows:

Full 360 3d movement and 360 camera movement by default, aka Yakuza, LA noire etc BUT;


Exact controls:
L stick - 360 3d movement walk/jog

no no... NO!
the camera should stick behind Ryo all the fucking time except for zoom into objects just like it was before.
and they should stick with Tank control not 360 degree movement crap.

seriously if Suzuki san changes a lot of the control scheme i will start to question if he really knows what he is doing anymore.. yup design wise it's THAT of a crucial part that was serving an important rule to immerse the player.
and this is not nostalgically speaking this will truly hurt part of strong immersion known in the series.

i stated before in one of the topics related to the subject that all they need to do really is simply assign the right analog for camera(head) movement and the actual movement should be optional between D-pad/left analog.
some minor additions would be sweet as well like touch pad for the note pad as you stated.
that's all about it.

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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Centrale » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:34 pm

Suzuki Yu wrote:
no no... NO!
the camera should stick behind Ryo all the fucking time except for zoom into objects just like it was before.
and they should stick with Tank control not 360 degree movement crap.


I think this would be a recipe for getting savaged in reviews. Keep tank controls as an option but have an updated control scheme as default. There's a reason why they're called "tank" controls and not "natural human motion" controls. This is supposed to be a game for millions of people, not just the players from the Dreamcast era. It should be possible to cater to both.

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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Suzuki Yu » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:26 pm

Centrale wrote:
Suzuki Yu wrote:
no no... NO!
the camera should stick behind Ryo all the fucking time except for zoom into objects just like it was before.
and they should stick with Tank control not 360 degree movement crap.


I think this would be a recipe for getting savaged in reviews. Keep tank controls as an option but have an updated control scheme as default. There's a reason why they're called "tank" controls and not "natural human motion" controls. This is supposed to be a game for millions of people, not just the players from the Dreamcast era. It should be possible to cater to both.

i don't care about the reviewers and what they might think is necessary for modern controls.
i don't agree with anyone saying the "Tank" control is outdated! it's a design choice that could fit/not fit with the game associated with.
there is a reason why the previous games controlled that way (body movement & camera movement) and if it's not for the lack of the left analog on the Dreamcast controller it would be absolutely a perfect controls for the series.
everything about the movement and camera makes you feel like you are Ryo you are in his shoes and you are observing your surroundings. being able to move the camera around Ryo and in front of his face rather than controlling his head will make you lose a lot of this sensation.
and i am completely against your point regarding the "natural human motion" too
for example take a look at this video at (09:23) basically most of the games (if not all of them) using this so called modern controls the character would act like this when you rotate him.
https://youtu.be/xkN9oru-qCQ?t=563
how can anyone consider this as a natural human motion and Ryo's motion is not! Ryo's motions are more natural than most of the games i played in my entire life! you feel his weight and feel his body parts moving around accurately.
Last edited by Suzuki Yu on Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby johnvivant » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:53 pm

Himuro wrote: Sprint should L2 like in 1 IMO.


-they can include an option for switching trigger functions (like originals)

360 3d movement can look very good, as shown in the video I submitted.

i believe that the full back profile view is very important for the feeling of immersion that is why I suggested an alternate movement control when L2 in pressed which will to some extent mimic that mode.

Even by Shenmue 2 they offered a 3d control mode, so the developers even back then recognised the difficulties that some players had with the controls.
I have no personal problem with the game playing exactly the same way as before, but I'm certain that most new players aren't going to like it.
-I definitely think they should include an option for classic controls -with movement acceleration on the right (or left trigger), but I just dont' think it should be that by default.

the d pad is actually still free to use for movement, unless they plan some other function for it, so I suggested it could still be used for classic style walking movement on a new default control scheme.
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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Suzuki Yu » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:15 pm

johnvivant wrote:
Himuro wrote: Sprint should L2 like in 1 IMO.


-they can include an option for switching trigger functions (like originals)

360 3d movement can look very good, as shown in the video I submitted.

i believe that the full back profile view is very important for the feeling of immersion that is why I suggested an alternate movement control when L2 in pressed which will to some extent mimic that mode.

Even by Shenmue 2 they offered a 3d control mode, so the developers even back then recognised the difficulties that some players had with the controls.
I have no personal problem with the game playing exactly the same way as before, but I'm certain that most new players aren't going to like it.
-I definitely think they should include an option for classic controls -with movement acceleration on the right (or left trigger), but I just dont' think it should be that by default.

the d pad is actually still free to use for movement, unless they plan some other function for it, so I suggested it could still be used for classic style walking movement on a new default control scheme.

you need to build your game with the controls in mind.
if you decided to go with Tank Controls you will build the entire animations of the characters and systems around it.
in case you offer a drastic alternative like a 3D 360 degree controls you will find yourself going through a severe work to do that... it's almost impossible to do it conveniently.
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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Rikitatsu » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:52 pm

@SuzukiYu

Totally agree with you there. The camera in the previous games have augmented the immersion, the player's view is always in line with Ryo's.

And if you start appealing to modern reviewers "standards" I'm afraid you'll have to strip down a lot of what made Shenmue special in the first place... I doubt it'll be the critics' darling, so why appease to them at the expense of the fanbase? I'm all for making the game hospitable to newcomers, but definitely not at the expense of diluting the game's elements.

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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby O Rei do Frango Assado » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:53 am

I'm a bit torn on this issue. While I do think that, without the fixed camera and tank controls, the game may lose a lot of its Shenmue feel to me, tank controls suck, if I'm being completely honest here.

At the end of the day, I think I'd rather have updated controls. Ryo always felt too heavy to control (outside of combat) and tank controls are just a pain. Since you spend most of the game moving around, that process should be as painless and as smooth as possible. As for it not feeling like Shenmue, I think I'd eventually get used to it. Games need to evolve. Simple as that. And we can't (or shouldn't) go to the extreme of saying that Shenmue 3 is not Shenmue just because they implemented some decent controls.
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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Peter » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:01 am

Take Kazuma in Yakuza and his 360 analogue movement. Or Lara Crofts in Tomb Raider..... Heck any modern day game which has a character you play as, having full instant 360° freedom. I'm fine with that.

But for Shenmue, and Shenmue 3 inclusive I may lean towards preferring tank controls. Yes they suck, and yes they may get slammed for it by critics, but the clue is in the word, as to why it makes sense. Walking is a chore. It's a weight. Any movement we do carries weight. It's meaty. That's why tank controls give Ryo that life-like feel, with the weight he carries. His movements are laborious, much like our own in real life. No one spins around on the spot 360°. Tank controls are part of Shenmues DNA for me and make up a part of the feeling that you are playing a Shenmue game, as much as any other aspect of it.

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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Himuro » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:42 am

I think you guys are insane.

Tank controls are not "immersive" and they will doom Shenmue III because you wanted to feel like how it was to play Shenmue when you were 16.

It is completely selfish to demand tank controls of this game and you will doom the project.

The only tank controls I could see working is Resident Evil 4/5 style.

Suzuki Yu wrote:
Centrale wrote:
Suzuki Yu wrote:
no no... NO!
the camera should stick behind Ryo all the fucking time except for zoom into objects just like it was before.
and they should stick with Tank control not 360 degree movement crap.


I think this would be a recipe for getting savaged in reviews. Keep tank controls as an option but have an updated control scheme as default. There's a reason why they're called "tank" controls and not "natural human motion" controls. This is supposed to be a game for millions of people, not just the players from the Dreamcast era. It should be possible to cater to both.

i don't care about the reviewers and what they might think is necessary for modern controls.
i don't agree with anyone saying the "Tank" control is outdated! it's a design choice that could fit/not fit with the game associated with.
there is a reason why the previous games controlled that way (body movement & camera movement) and if it's not for the lack of the left analog on the Dreamcast controller it would be absolutely a perfect controls for the series.
everything about the movement and camera makes you feel like you are Ryo you are in his shoes and you are observing your surroundings. being able to move the camera around Ryo and in front of his face rather than controlling his head will make you lose a lot of this sensation.
and i am completely against your point regarding the "natural human motion" too
for example take a look at this video at (09:23) basically most of the games (if not all of them) using this so called modern controls the character would act like this when you rotate him.
https://youtu.be/xkN9oru-qCQ?t=563
how can anyone consider this as a natural human motion and Ryo's motion is not! Ryo's motions are more natural than most of the games i played in my entire life! you feel his weight and feel his body parts moving around accurately.


Doesn't matter what critics think? What about new players? You are dooming this game with this talk. Honestly, I've never, in my 11 years as a Shenmue fan, ever felt that the controls were a part of why I love Shenmue 1 and II. It's probably last on that theoretical list. Most of your arguments are arguing in favor of specific animations and aesthetic and not controls. You can still have right stick act as camera and still function as Ryo's head. You can even do more things with the right stick compared to R trigger. With Right stick you can move the stick up and down and make it function like Ryo's head. But you're thinking not about replicating the experience but replicating the design of the old games - essentially choosing nostalgia over function, which is the last thing we need. Furthermore, having a feeling of always being in Ryo's shadow and has absolutely nothing to do with tank controls but the position of the camera and Ryo's movement speed, which is slow and relaxed, even when sprinting. Even then, games like Gears of War have the camera placed so that it feels like you're in the characters perspective while not having tank controls. Your premise is flawed.

Honestly, I find the claim that tank controls are immersive and realistic funny. Like people turn around like robots when they want to turn around.

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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Himuro » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:24 pm

Anyways, that locomotion video is amazing and I think it'd work great for Shenmue III with some caveats:

1. No full 3D camera control. It should be limited to Ryo's head. You move the camera with right stick.

2. That slower speed, if the camera were closer to the model, would have been very Shenmue.

With that said, here's how I think Shenmue III should control.

Left stick - slow walk is basic movement with stick.
Left trigger - different run speeds from jog all the way to full run like in I and II.
Right stick - camera
Right trigger - zoom
Square - journal, swipe with touchpad to turn pages
Triangle - menu
Cross - talk/examine
Circle - NA
L1 - watch as John suggested, time skip activate with X. Let the player skip forward to any time on the clock.
Options - pause
Touchpad - map
D-pad - no d pad use except for fights and stuff like arcade games and qte's
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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Hyo Razuki » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:49 pm

I'd be careful asking for tank controls. It's really asking for bad reviews.

Personally, I'm not worried about the game's control scheme in adventure mode. As long as the free battle mode is great, I don't see any issues with the walking controls.
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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Centrale » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:09 pm

Peter wrote:But for Shenmue, and Shenmue 3 inclusive I may lean towards preferring tank controls. Yes they suck, and yes they may get slammed for it by critics, but the clue is in the word, as to why it makes sense. Walking is a chore. It's a weight. Any movement we do carries weight. It's meaty. That's why tank controls give Ryo that life-like feel, with the weight he carries. His movements are laborious, much like our own in real life. No one spins around on the spot 360°. Tank controls are part of Shenmues DNA for me and make up a part of the feeling that you are playing a Shenmue game, as much as any other aspect of it.


I haven't ever really felt like walking is laborious unless I have some kind of injury. Usually it's something I do easily and with fluidity. Turning is something I do without any thought or difficulty. I'm not spinning like a top on a single point but if I want to I can spin around pretty quickly. Sure, have some limits to speed that convey weight. But particularly since Ryo is an advanced martial arts practitioner. Look at the way he moves in a QTE when he's effortlessly fighting off multiple opponents. He's not having to sequentially turn his body and then move. I remember feeling like the locomotion controls in Shenmue were a bit stiff even when they were brand new.

Rikitatsu wrote:@SuzukiYu

And if you start appealing to modern reviewers "standards" I'm afraid you'll have to strip down a lot of what made Shenmue special in the first place... I doubt it'll be the critics' darling, so why appease to them at the expense of the fanbase?


Okay, but I think you should acknowledge that it's only a part of the existing fanbase that likes tank controls. There are also people who have played since the beginning that welcome the advances in standard controllers and controls. Wouldn't you say that tank controls have a niche appeal? They can be there as an option. I don't understand the desire to make them standard, just like I don't understand the people who are getting worked up about including loading screens (which would surely have to be faked as loading will not take that long in 2017). But it's not about appeasing only critics... they really won't make sense to a significant number of potential players.
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Re: S3 gameplay - Movement style and controls

Postby Peter » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:40 pm

I know it is a bit insane to want tank controls to remain, but it's a terrible position for the developers to be in. I fear it could be a, "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

Although I assume we are all agreed on Ryo walking by default, with a trigger control to run yes?
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