Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Fluffy90 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:13 pm

In all honesty i think no matter what Shenmue 3 ends up being you can be assured it will at least have the original scope of what Yu intended to follow on the Dreamcast after Shenmue II, so in light of that i don't see how any Shenmue fan can complain.

That's how i see it anyway,of course there are ALWAYS things to pick at and say could be better in ANY game ,all i want is for Yu to be able to deliver on his original vision and obviously modern platforms are going to be able to deliver a much more realistic and convincing experience than the platform Shenmue debut on.

I don't think the Dreamcast would of actually done the later Shenmue chapters justice.

On the topic of IV or V can someone refresh me on which chapters the now Shenmue III is suppose to cover,has this been confirmed at all?

You have to imagine the deal with Deep silver included talks of multiple sequels knowing III wasn't the conclusion,there must be internal sales targets that the publisher wants Yu to hit and if so then the rest should be green-lit.

Weather or not Yu goes the kickstarter route again is hard to predict,would deep silver or Sony want to fully fund the next projects if Shenmue III does well? Maybe Shenmue IV could be a launch title for the ps5 come 2020 :D
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Fluffy90 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:24 pm

shenmue852 wrote: Sega made the mistake of going with Microsoft instead of Sony, and Microsoft made the mistake of being shitty at publishing software exclusives unlike Sony and Nintendo.


In the case of shenmue yes that was a fatal mistake to launch exclusively on the xbox,which sold next to nothing in Japan,perhaps Sega didn't anticipate the xbox bombing on their home turf?

I have the feeling though that Sega actually didn't really want to make any deals with Microsoft/Bill and it was Peter Moore's hire onto the xbox team that sort of twisted their hand into supporting them.

OR maybe Sega was hate riddled after being killed out of the hardware business by the PS2 and only after looking at the figures later realized they had to support it if they wanted to keep afloat.

I don't know if the answers to these questions are documented out there but there seems to be so many different possible reasons for why Sega did this or that.

There is that one interview with Yu that i remember way back when discussing the porting process of shenmue II to the xbox and him stating the fact the dreamcast used windows 'CE' as being a factor,but then we later learned that i think NO dreamcast games actually used it as a basis for it's engine so...
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby munchmunch » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:56 pm

shenmue852 wrote: Shenmue wasn't a flop, Shenmue II was, because of Xbox exclusivity. Microsoft basically killed Shenmue when they made Sega cancel the North American Dreamcast release, although because of the console's discontinuation and launch of PS2, a worldwide Dreamcast release probably would've sold about as much as the Xbox and EU Dreamcast sales combined, which is about 500,000. However, the only sales figures that were consideredin the end were the 320,000 sold on Xbox, which makes it look like a total flop.

If it had been released on the PS2 or Gamecube however, especially if bundled with the first game, it would've sold 1 million at least.

Sega made the mistake of going with Microsoft instead of Sony, and Microsoft made the mistake of being shitty at publishing software exclusives unlike Sony and Nintendo.


The first one didn't really sell well either tbh.

And I highly doubt Shenmue 2 would've sold that many copies either. PS2 probably but even if it sold a million I'm not sure it would convince Sega to fund another game, especially when you consider the PS2 install base.

I got both on Dreamcast when they came. I got the original Xbox as well but I didn't buy Shenmue 2 on release until a few years later because I didn't feel I needed to because I already had it on Dreamcast, maybe others did the same.
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby KidMarine » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:17 pm

munchmunch wrote:The first one didn't really sell well either tbh.

IIRC it sold about a million copies and there was about 4 million Dreamcasts sold world-wide at the time of its western release.
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby munchmunch » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:27 pm

KidMarine wrote:
munchmunch wrote:The first one didn't really sell well either tbh.

IIRC it sold about a million copies and there was about 4 million Dreamcasts sold world-wide at the time of its western release.


True but I believe they made a low profit from it?
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Fluffy90 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:55 pm

Well it was a net-negative and wasn't there some crazy statistic out there that everyone who owned a dreamcast would of had to buy two copies of shenmue for it to of been profitable?

I wonder if Sega even intended from the beginning for Shenmue to make any money and instead was developed to be a shield to protect the dreamcast upon the looming doom of the ps2,how Yu managed to swindle so much cash out of Sega and keep the development going for 5 years is quite remarkable
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby KidMarine » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:02 pm

A significant portion of the money spent on Shenmue's development was in creating the engine and the tools that were so far ahead of anything else. The plan was to roll the engine out as a standard for future Dreamcast games, but that sadly never came to be.

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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Fluffy90 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:31 pm

That's the first time i've heard that Sega planned to use the shenmue engine for future projects,i wonder if any of the code was actually shared and ported to other engines or platforms that sega later developed for.

It would be interesting if at a future GDC or something Yu did a deep dive into the engine and inner workings of shenmue development,i know he already sort of did one but he didn't get overly technical,as sega technically own the engine and the IP perhaps they wouldn't even allow Yu to get too technical?
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Telekill » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:47 pm

Fluffy90 wrote:I have the feeling though that Sega actually didn't really want to make any deals with Microsoft/Bill and it was Peter Moore's hire onto the xbox team that sort of twisted their hand into supporting them.


How would Moore being hired have changed Sega's mind towards Microsoft? My history on employees on both sides is fuzzy in this regard.

Fluffy90 wrote:OR maybe Sega was hate riddled after being killed out of the hardware business by the PS2 and only after looking at the figures later realized they had to support it if they wanted to keep afloat.


I still don't feel it was PS2's fault that the Dreamcast died. I actually blame Microsoft and the Xbox as I strongly feel that the industry can't support more than three consoles. Why do I hold this theory? Let's take a look at history...

Atari, Nintendo and Sega during the 80's to mid 90's.
Atari bows out when Playstation becomes successful.
3DO, CDi, and numerous other 90's consoles fail to take hold in a competitive market.
This leaves Nintendo, Sega and Playstation.
Then Sega's own rocky history of add on systems to the Genesis/Mega Drive riddled with failure.
Microsoft announces Xbox
Sega discontinues Dreamcast once Xbox releases or shortly after.
This leaves Nintendo, Playstation and Xbox. These three have been the only real contenders ever since.

Nintendo was on death's door until the Switch became a success which had many people speculating that before Switch, Nintendo would bow out and perhaps Samsung, Apple or Google would release a console.
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Switch » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:47 pm

Fluffy90 wrote: That's the first time i've heard that Sega planned to use the shenmue engine for future projects,i wonder if any of the code was actually shared and ported to other engines or platforms that sega later developed for.


Yu Suzuki commented about this a bit in an interview when chatting with Tekken producer Katsuhiro Harada at the end of last year:

YS: There are occasionally people who say “Sega went downhill because of Shenmue”. But in the year of Shenmue’s release, games like Virtua Fighter 4 were also released, so I think Sega came out positive in terms of stand-alone profit. [laughs]

I don’t think there's ever been even a single year where I generated a loss for Sega.

KH: I think you can emphasize that more. [laughs]

YS: In addition, I think that the resources and know-how gained from Shenmue’s development are being put to good use within Sega.

KH: Yeah, everyone figures that’s probably the case for Yakuza.


Link to interview: http://www.phantomriverstone.com/2017/0 ... rview.html
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Fluffy90 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:58 pm

Telekill wrote:How would Moore being hired have changed Sega's mind towards Microsoft? My history on employees on both sides is fuzzy in this regard.


Moore was head of Sega US relations,he was the one who cancelled shenmue II on the DC in america and got it on the Xbox,Moore got many deals done for Microsoft and guess what later Microsoft made him head of xbox as a result of these 'favors'.

I don't know for sure but looking back at it i can't imagine Sega really looked at the xbox being the logical move for any of it's titles without being pushed by certain individuals,Sega was in a very vulnerable position and those who maybe had personal interests closer to heart ended up doing Sega more damage than good.

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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Telekill » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:11 am

Fluffy90 wrote:
Telekill wrote:How would Moore being hired have changed Sega's mind towards Microsoft? My history on employees on both sides is fuzzy in this regard.


Moore was head of Sega US relations,he was the one who cancelled shenmue II on the DC in america and got it on the Xbox,Moore got many deals done for Microsoft and guess what later Microsoft made him head of xbox as a result of these 'favors'.

I don't know for sure but looking back at it i can't imagine Sega really looked at the xbox being the logical move for any of it's titles without being pushed by certain individuals,Sega was in a very vulnerable position and those who maybe had personal interests closer to heart ended up doing Sega more damage than good.


Genuine thanks for the history lesson. I can totally see someone in Moore's position, given that history, as having quite a bit of sway. I knew he was responsible for hurting Shenmue is some fashion back in the day but I didn't remember the "how".
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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Truck_1_0_1_ » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:30 am

Regardless of how much he villified or hated by the Shenmue fanbase (Peter, lol), Peter Moore did great things for Sega as a whole and if not for him making the decision he did, Sega would most-likely not even be a software dev/publisher today, which means we would've gotten:

- No Ryu ga Gotoku and the various other related titles
- No awesome arcade titles
- Nothing but Sonic, which, as we know, has been subpar for most of the 2000s
- Various IPs sold off and possibly tainted/ruined/not done anything with

Hate the guy all you want for Shenmue-related things, but:

1. It wouldn't have saved Sega if II was released in NA, thus we would still be where we are today, most-likely.
2. I'm happy with the stuff we've gotten, post-Dreamcast (well, mainly the entire Ryu ga Gotoku/Yakuza series lol and Binary Domain) and the latter DC titles, like Under Defeat, Radirgy and the like.

I'll back away now, just thought I'd give a different rationale on why PM did what he did.

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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Centrale » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:52 am

Peter Moore has recently clarified that his statement that he "made the call" to discontinue the Dreamcast and have Sega transition into a third party developer has been misconstrued. He didn't make the decision; he literally had to set up the conference call between the various divisions of Sega to receive the word of the decision, which came from Sega of Japan.

If he hadn't brokered the deal to get Shenmue II ported to the Xbox, it likely would not have been published by Sega for the Dreamcast in North America at all. Take a look at Sega's logic-defying decisions ever since leaving the hardware business about what gets localized and what doesn't. It was Sega's chosen strategy at the start of the third party era to provide console exclusives for each console.

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Re: Yu Suzuki: "I can make the whole game you imagined"

Postby Fluffy90 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:50 pm

Centrale but then how come shenmue II got released on the dreamcast in europe (from uk here),the problem clearly wasn't sega's willingness to put it out on the dreamcast but it must of been Peter (again being head of Sega US) who at least had some input into the decision to get it cancelled and moved to the xbox.

Maybe He was great for Sega overall and nothing could of stopped the dreamcast from tanking but seeing as he did end up leading the xbox 360 era he must of done alot of favors for Microsoft for them to of put him there is all i'm saying.

People's own personal careers often come before the companies best interests,remember that folks.
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