The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Shenmue_Legend » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:47 am

Kintor wrote:
drunkensailor wrote:wow. what a bunch of crying. people have worse tastes now? go look up scores of games like Limbo, Brothers, flower, journey, heavy rain, life is strange, the last of us, witcher 3 and what have you.

for the record shenmue 1 got bombarded with terrible review scores by pro's and consumers alike, upon release.

it's clear as hell you are as clueless as anything about current generation gaming or you would not have mentioned call of duty. that game got completely trashed last year for releasing one version to similar to their past efforts. people are more critical than ever and have more diverse taste.

Think of it like this, in many ways gamers have become complacent because of how easy many modern games have become. It's a problem that really began with the fall of the Dreamcast and the decline of arcade gaming in general. Where many developers are now afraid to let a player fail a challenge.

Games like Gone Home are the worst examples of this, pretentious self-congratulatory narratives with almost no gameplay. Although, on the other hand you have games like Dark Souls and Cuphead that once again challenge players with their harsh difficulty, which gamers have responded quite positively too. So it's not all bad. If nothing else it will be interesting to see if Shenmue 3 resonates with the more hardcore crowd.


Thanks for backing me up Kintor. I absolutely agree with all of your posts in this thread!
User avatar
Shenmue_Legend
Banned
Banned
 
Joined: August 2017

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Shenmue_Legend » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:51 am

drunkensailor wrote:
Shenmue_Legend wrote: If they had all the funding that they needed to revolutionise and innovate once again, then Shenmue III would easily get 10/10s on many sites, just like The Last Of Us. But then again, critics and modern gamers nowadays have terrible taste and love any old crap (COD games still getting great reviews is the perfect example of this) but when it comes to the good stuff, they don't recognise it because they've been brainwashed by all the bad stuff. Only true gamers really appreciate masterpieces like Shenmue. I guess we'll have to wait and see but in terms of the experience and quality, Shenmue III is going to be absolutely top notch just like Shenmue I and II.

wow. what a bunch of crying. people have worse tastes now? go look up scores of games like Limbo, Brothers, flower, journey, heavy rain, life is strange, the last of us, witcher 3 and what have you.

for the record shenmue 1 got bombarded with terrible review scores by pro's and consumers alike, upon release.

it's clear as hell you are as clueless as anything about current generation gaming or you would not have mentioned call of duty. that game got completely trashed last year for releasing one version to similar to their past efforts. people are more critical than ever and have more diverse taste.


No offense, but I can see why you're called "drunkensailor".
User avatar
Shenmue_Legend
Banned
Banned
 
Joined: August 2017

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Kiske » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:58 am

drunkensailor wrote:
for the record shenmue 1 got bombarded with terrible review scores by pro's and consumers alike, upon release.



The great majority of Shenmue reviews I do remember were positive.

There has been the Gamespot review case, but I'm pretty sure the reception was mostly positive back at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenmue#Reception
User avatar
Kiske
News Poster
News Poster
 
Joined: August 2015
Location: Switzerland
PSN: KosiKosa
Favorite title: Shenmue II

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Shenmue_Legend » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:09 am

Kiske wrote:
drunkensailor wrote:
for the record shenmue 1 got bombarded with terrible review scores by pro's and consumers alike, upon release.



The great majority of Shenmue reviews I do remember were positive.

There has been the Gamespot review case, but I'm pretty sure the reception was mostly positive back at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenmue#Reception


Not to mention that the Gamespot review is the only game review in history to have the score changed due to the amount of flack that the reviewer got for it. The review score was changed from a 6.8 to a 7.8 and if you read the comments, most people said that a 7.8 is also too low.

Shenmue_Legend has received a thanks from: VukBZ2005
User avatar
Shenmue_Legend
Banned
Banned
 
Joined: August 2017

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby shredingskin » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:18 am

Shenmue_Legend wrote:
Yakuza's combat is boring and repetitive. I played Yakuza 4 when it was free on Playstation Plus and it was way worse than the combat in Shenmue. Yes, you can spam moves in Shenmue and still win but higher skilled players can show the beauty of it when you mix together different moves and make it look very cool. I mean in the Batman games, you can keep pressing the counter button and win but it's up to the player to use the system to its full potential and make it look like an action movie!

As for the facial animations video, that was freaking work in progress test footage. How the hell could you accurately predict what they're going to be like from that? It's the worst thing you could do.

And really? Trolling? So anyone that praises Shenmue on a site that is literally dedicated to it is a troll? I mean, it's in the name "Shenmue Dojo".


Yakuza 0 has pretty good combat, it's arcade style, fast, pretty responsive, with a lot of umph and good moments, but I guess that's taste.
Shenmue combat was good, but it's not really balanced enough to be called "hardcore", it is what it is. The lock on, movement, hitframes and the hit detection would feel really clunky today. It has a lot of moves, but most of them are just for the flash.

The facial animations you have to imagine them in context, they're going to do morphs that react to vowels for lipsynch and tags (frightened/lookAt/etc.), it's an indie game with tons of dialogue, it won't be handmade, that would be a little too much.
User avatar
shredingskin
Machine Gun Fist
Machine Gun Fist
 
Joined: March 2012
Location: Argentina
Favorite title: Shenmue
Currently playing: Some indie games.

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Kintor » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:37 am

shredingskin wrote:Shenmue combat was good, but it's not really balanced enough to be called "hardcore", it is what it is. The lock on, movement, hitframes and the hit detection would feel really clunky today. It has a lot of moves, but most of them are just for the flash.

Shenmue's combat mechanics were based on Virtua Fighter 2; you can't get much more hardcore with that. Probably a legacy of when Shenmue originally began development as a Saturn game but it's still an important part of the game. Heck, I'm sure I've seen some detailed analysis in the past that compared notable boss battles in Shenmue to specific Virtua Fighter characters and their iconic move sets. Ryo might have more moves then the average fighting character but that shouldn't detract from the technical sophistication of Shenmue's combat mechanics.

As for Shenmue 3? It's probably not feasible to still use the Virtua Fighter 2 mechanics but I still have every confidence in Yu Suzuki and his team to offer a hardcore gameplay experience. Among his many talents Yu Suzuki is a well-known for having studied martial arts extensively. I know that he won't approve of Shenmue 3's combat mechanics unit they meet his high standards.

Kintor has received a thanks from: VukBZ2005
User avatar
Kintor
Man Mo Acolyte
Man Mo Acolyte
 
Joined: June 2015
Favorite title: Shenmue II

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Shenmue_Legend » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:50 am

Kintor wrote:
shredingskin wrote:Shenmue combat was good, but it's not really balanced enough to be called "hardcore", it is what it is. The lock on, movement, hitframes and the hit detection would feel really clunky today. It has a lot of moves, but most of them are just for the flash.

Shenmue's combat mechanics were based on Virtua Fighter 2; you can't get much more hardcore with that. Probably a legacy of when Shenmue originally began development as a Saturn game but it's still an important part of the game. Heck, I'm sure I've seen some detailed analysis in the past that compared notable boss battles in Shenmue to specific Virtua Fighter characters and their iconic move sets. Ryo might have more moves then the average fighting character but that shouldn't detract from the technical sophistication of Shenmue's combat mechanics.

As for Shenmue 3? It's probably not feasible to still use the Virtua Fighter 2 mechanics but I still have every confidence in Yu Suzuki and his team to offer a hardcore gameplay experience. Among his many talents Yu Suzuki is a well-known for having studied martial arts extensively. I know that he won't approve of Shenmue 3's combat mechanics unit they meet his high standards.


Right on!
User avatar
Shenmue_Legend
Banned
Banned
 
Joined: August 2017

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Hyo Razuki » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:16 pm

drunkensailor wrote:
for the record shenmue 1 got bombarded with terrible review scores by pro's and consumers alike, upon release.


No. Although it seems S1 is not on Metacritic, Dreamcast version S2 averages at 88 in critics' reviews and Xbox version ranks at 80. There might have been the occasional critic bashing the game, but generally, S2 received very good reviews.

Can't immagine S1 to have done that much worse. As far as I remember, most gaming magazines praised S1 back in the day.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/dreamcast/shenmue-ii

EDIT: Thanks to Wikipedia, I found this for S1. According to Gamerankings, it ranks at an average score of 89.

http://www.gamerankings.com/dreamcast/1 ... index.html

On the question of "Should Yu let 'modern' games influence S3?" I think I've made my views clear in my post on page 2. Not gonna go into detail again. Basically I think he absolutely should pay attention to current games but with caution. Use what is useful, discard what is bad.

But honestly said, I find it pointless, arguing about the pros and cons about mass market gaming trends nowadays. The masses tastes are what they are and we are not gonna change them. I'm not against mass market games in general, Uncharted 4 for instance is one of my favorite games ever.

To end this on a positive note: I think there has never been a more friendly environment for niche games and indy games to be successful than this generation, especially on the PS4 as platform.

Hyo Razuki has received a thanks from: VukBZ2005
User avatar
Hyo Razuki
"After Burner...Great!"
"After Burner...Great!"
 
Joined: June 2015

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby drunkensailor » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:02 pm

shenmue 2 got much better reviews, but 88 isn't anything great though. shenmue one got about a 7.8. major magazines and websites were flaming the game big time and consumers as well. it got tons of bad reviews and press over it.
User avatar
drunkensailor
Alpha Trading Boss
Alpha Trading Boss
 
Joined: November 2005
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands
PSN: gjb1985
Favorite title: Shenmue II

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby sand4fish » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:02 pm

shredingskin wrote:Yes I can.
And a lot of SF pros are quite angry with the direction V took.


Of course you can. You could also always play only Pong and Tetris for the remaining of your days. To some those are better than a GTA or Uncharted. Might as well go for phone booths instead of smartphones while we are at it. Less radiation I heard.

But anyway you are misunderstanding me. My only argument is that SF V is the more complex game than SF II, but not the better game. The reference I made about the strategy genre is that it advanced to a point way beyond its humbling beginnings, mainly due to technology which enabled developers to put in a greater vision for their games. The 2D fighting landscape meanwhile never changed much after SF II in the grand scheme of things. After all it's all about 2 avatars fighting each other moving only left or right on a pretty much static background. So developers had to implement more complex mechanics with each entry to keep the genre moving forward.


shredingskin wrote:I don't know why this matter though, Shenmue was as "hardcore" as milk with honey.
You couldn't loose, you could retry everything or there were other paths, the difficulty decreases, you had hints everywhere, the most powerful move is pressing forward forward punch, and the most "strategy" the game uses in combat is blocking/dodge and counter attack, but you can beat 90% spamming elbow assault, come on.
The only "hardcore" thing about Shenmue is that has quite a time investment floor.


I could also beat any fighting game with only a strong punch if I try hard enough. Difficulty is not the point. Shenmue is hardcore because it has depth. The game contains entire different genres within its design. Going for a stroll around the city, playing detective, talking to some people, getting into a street fight 1-v-1 and sometimes 1-vs-70, sleeping and going for a forklift racing with your co-workers early in the morning before work (Shenmue). OR. Only getting into a street fight 1-v-1 constantly with the occasional change of scenery (any other 2D fighting game). Which one is the more appealing?

shredingskin wrote:But I guess this thread turned into trolling so gradually I didn't even notice.

Yeah, more internet police is needed unfortunately.

Now back to Shenmue 3, I will find it to be a disappointment if all the game is gonna be is an exact copy/paste from the previous entries with no refinement in its core mechanics, specially given how far games and technology has come since the late 90's and early 2000's. Not like it's going to happen, but I'm still appalled that some fans just require updated graphics for the long run of the series to be happy with it.
User avatar
sand4fish
"After Burner...Great!"
"After Burner...Great!"
 
Joined: November 2013
Favorite title: Shenmue

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Abraham_1 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:28 pm

drunkensailor wrote: shenmue 2 got much better reviews, but 88 isn't anything great though. shenmue one got about a 7.8. major magazines and websites were flaming the game big time and consumers as well. it got tons of bad reviews and press over it.


'Major magazines and websites were flaming the game big time'. The picture you're painting doesn't reflect what I remember at release. It was actually a little hipster to rag on Shenmue at the time hahaha.

Don't just take my word for it though; check the 'Critical Reception' section: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenmue_(video_game)

The lowest score given to Shenmue was 6/10 by Game Informer. With the exception of a 7.8 by Gamespot US (UK gave the game 8.1), basically every major reviewer gave the game over 8/10, which, especially for the time, was considered great. Maybe today, because of the increase prominence of 8s and 9s out of 10 it may not seem like much.
User avatar
Abraham_1
Funny Bear Burger Clerk
Funny Bear Burger Clerk
 
Joined: February 2016
PSN: THEBIGFATDUDE
Nintendo FC: abraham_b123
Steam: Abraham_B
Favorite title: Shenmue II
Currently playing: Danganronpa V3

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Centrale » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:34 pm

drunkensailor wrote: shenmue 2 got much better reviews, but 88 isn't anything great though. shenmue one got about a 7.8. major magazines and websites were flaming the game big time and consumers as well. it got tons of bad reviews and press over it.


Heh, this is a great example of how diluted and generally useless numerical scores have become. The numbers simply don't mean the same thing from site to site, much less from gamer to gamer. That's why I prefer sites that have stopped giving numerical or otherwise quantified scores and require users to read the review.
User avatar
Centrale
Man Mo Acolyte
Man Mo Acolyte
 
Joined: June 2015
Favorite title: Shenmue

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Shenmue_Legend » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:23 pm

drunkensailor wrote: shenmue 2 got much better reviews, but 88 isn't anything great though. shenmue one got about a 7.8. major magazines and websites were flaming the game big time and consumers as well. it got tons of bad reviews and press over it.


Shenmue I got a 9.7/10 on IGN. The Gamespot review had a lot of people in the comments section absolutely mocking the reviewer and many there praised it as the greatest game of all time. It got a 9.1 on Gamespot overall after more than 2000 user reviews and Gamespot's community is known to be cancerous. Seriously what are these "tons of bad reviews and press"? I couldn't find any bad reviews at all in fact. For a site dedicated to Shenmue, there sure are a lot of negative people around here.

Shenmue_Legend has received a thanks from: VukBZ2005
User avatar
Shenmue_Legend
Banned
Banned
 
Joined: August 2017

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby drunkensailor » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:03 am

nobody takes ign seriously.

I know from german and dutch major magazines rating the game a 7.5 and you guys seem to completely miss my point about consumers rating the game much lower back in the day. the game got a ton of hatred from gamers, who simply were not ready. just like people were not ready for blade runner in 1982 and blade runner 2049 in 2017. shenmue is now almost universally loved but that was not the case at all when shenmue 1 got released.

I remember buying shenmue 1 and the shopkeeper said he had sold 7 games, of which 6 were returned by consumers within the same day and I checked many major retail website fora back then and people hated the game beyond belief. especially the cat segment and "boring" gameplay.
User avatar
drunkensailor
Alpha Trading Boss
Alpha Trading Boss
 
Joined: November 2005
Location: Nijmegen, The Netherlands
PSN: gjb1985
Favorite title: Shenmue II

Re: The Shenmue 3 Effect: What could go wrong or right

Postby Kintor » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:01 am

drunkensailor wrote: nobody takes ign seriously.

I know from german and dutch major magazines rating the game a 7.5 and you guys seem to completely miss my point about consumers rating the game much lower back in the day. the game got a ton of hatred from gamers, who simply were not ready. just like people were not ready for blade runner in 1982 and blade runner 2049 in 2017. shenmue is now almost universally loved but that was not the case at all when shenmue 1 got released.

I remember buying shenmue 1 and the shopkeeper said he had sold 7 games, of which 6 were returned by consumers within the same day and I checked many major retail website fora back then and people hated the game beyond belief. especially the cat segment and "boring" gameplay.

What's with this revisionist history all of a sudden? To claim that people have always secretly hated Shenmue. The only reason that we've gotten this far because of Shenmue's legendary reputation. The original game actually sold quite well on the Dreamcast. It was only Sega's finances at the time that brought an end to the Dreamcast and with it any chances of Shenmue finding a wider audience. Yet even that disastrous turn of events couldn't keep Shenmue down, people kept talking about it, with copies of the game quickly commanding more than retail price on the second-hand market.

Kintor has received a thanks from: VukBZ2005
User avatar
Kintor
Man Mo Acolyte
Man Mo Acolyte
 
Joined: June 2015
Favorite title: Shenmue II

PreviousNext

Return to Shenmue III

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest

Powered by phpBB © 2000-
ShenmueDojo.net