"Indie" or "AAA" game?

[Yokosuka]

But do you really think indie is the way to go about this? Using the UE4 engine and creating the game using funds from the KS is good but what this means is that the game probably won't be as good as the originals in terms of how much depth and detail they delivered. Yes, we DO want the game, and for it to be similar to 1&2 or even the exact, complete copy of it but granted that it is to be indie just makes it look a little pathetic since we're talking about Shenmue here, a groundbreaking game just with the lack of mass sales.

This being said, we must get something that isin't shitter than the golden Shenmue 1 and 2. I highly speculate that this isin't going to to be the case IMO.

I agree and I anticipate disappointment among quite a lot of fans. However :
- Shenmue 2 was already a downgrade in terms of interaction.
- Fortunately, there are no megalopolis like Hong Kong to model.
- When you listen to them, the team looks as passionate and delighted as us. And they made nothing particular since the time. Shenmue 3 is the project of their life, they will give everything they've got to make the game of their dream or to take off their career.
- As ash55 said, create a game has never been so easy. Unreal Engine 4 is powerful and well documented. And you know how Suzuki did miracles with much more complicated PC stuff along his brilliant career.
- Yu Suzuki has impressive knowledge in management and organization as well thanks his experience from the previous Shenmue (includind fails), he knows what he has to do and what do not. In addition, the complicity seems high between him and the other key men.
- Yu wants his revenge as a developper and a creator, you feel it through his interviews.
- Perspective system, Rapport system look like brillant ways to enhance the experience without spending crazy money.
- The Vanishing of Ethan Carter has proven this was possible. In the worst cases, Project Zero 5 on Wii U is still pretty good looking.
- If Shenmue 3 is a success, Shenmue 4 will attract new partners and new ambitions.

[tonks]

I don't believe we will get a game that will push the limits of technology like Shenmue did when it first arrived, no.
Further, I think it's likely that Shenmue3 will be smaller than 2, and perhaps even 1, and will have fewer characters. Which might sound alarming to some people, but I'm not worried.

Why not? Because size and depth are two different things, and the rural setting of Shenmue 3 was ALWAYS going to make it radically different from the first two. From everything I've read, it seems like there will be a greater emphasis on the NPCs and your interactions with them. The only time I went online with the Passport disc of Shenmue 1, my mind was blown when I realised that EVERY SINGLE NPC in that game had a detailed backstory. You'd never know this just by playing the game, because you're incredibly limited in your interactions with these characters - all you can really do is ask them where the sailors are.

The way I imagine they could make Shenmue3 on the cheap is if they use Majora's Mask as a model. Majora's Mask was, in its own way, prototypical of Shenmue itself - each NPC had their own lives spread across three days, and they would move around the map at will. The depth this gave the characters was remarkable, and a quest like this was at the same time cinematic, emotional, and incredibly satisfying.
To apply it to Shenmue, Ryo enters a village as an outsider, and his presence acts as a catalyst of change for the inhabitants. Just as Ryo would be introduced to a new way of life, a new philosophy on living, so would they. So through your interaction with an NPC who, say, works on a fishing boat, he might be convinced to save up to buy a boat of his own, and eventually, after the passing of a few months, you will one day see him on the river, fishing by himself.
It's not expensive to add add that kind of depth (at least, not compared to creating a hundreds of characters and a gargantuan game world), but I would argue that it's just as satisfying as the broad scale of Shenmue 2.

[Henry Spencer]

In the worst cases, Project Zero 5 on Wii U is still pretty good looking.

I'd argue that it's the best looking game on Wii U. Exclusive, I mean.

[Himuro]

I wouldn't class Siren: Blood Curse as a B game or even in the same stratosphere as Deadly Premonition (which was a low budget game). Siren: Blood Curse was expensive and one of the best looking games on the PS3 (from the same guy who later delivered one of the best looking games on the Vita in Gravity Rush), especially from a Japanese developer.

On topic, there's this other tier called "mid-tier" I've heard the best games are made in this area. Not everything needs to be AAA or indie, ya know.

Siren may not be, but Deadly Premonition is a fantastic example of a B game. What was Siren Blood Curse's budget?

In any case, yeah, I don't understand why people don't think there are only AAA and indie games. It's almost as if they don't realize what AAA actually is.

[Henry Spencer]

No idea really, it's just that Siren Blood Curse was a Sony funded and developed game, seem to remember Toyama saying to the effect of "this time the budget was much higher" in comparison to his PS2 Siren games. I just think of Siren Blood Curse as a beautifully dark game, the lighting engine in that game is insane, really well done character models that wowed me at the time and just the sense of decay and dirt in that game adds to that grimy and creepy aesthetic. I like Deadly Premonition too, just feel that game doesn't look even half as a good visually, it is a good example of B grade though, yeah.

[Reprise]

I thought Deadly Premonition was full blown Indie. No way is it B, surely? It's so laughably bad (yet good!).

[Himuro]

But do you really think indie is the way to go about this? Using the UE4 engine and creating the game using funds from the KS is good but what this means is that the game probably won't be as good as the originals in terms of how much depth and detail they delivered. Yes, we DO want the game, and for it to be similar to 1&2 or even the exact, complete copy of it but granted that it is to be indie just makes it look a little pathetic since we're talking about Shenmue here, a groundbreaking game just with the lack of mass sales.

This being said, we must get something that isin't shitter than the golden Shenmue 1 and 2. I highly speculate that this isin't going to to be the case IMO.

No offense, but the way you talk about indie games speaks greatly of a lot of ignorance.

This game is being made by a team of six people.

It is indie. It is clearly inspired by Shenmue. It is Unreal 4, the same engine as Shenmue III.

phpBB [video]

This is No Man's Sky, it is indie. It is being made by ten people.

phpBB [video]

There is nothing indicating Shenmue III won't be similar to past games. It doesn't need a AAA budget. Trust in Yu and his team.

[Himuro]

No idea really, it's just that Siren Blood Curse was a Sony funded and developed game, seem to remember Toyama saying to the effect of "this time the budget was much higher" in comparison to his PS2 Siren games. I just think of Siren Blood Curse as a beautifully dark game, the lighting engine in that game is insane, really well done character models that wowed me at the time and just the sense of decay and dirt in that game adds to that grimy and creepy aesthetic. I like Deadly Premonition too, just feel that game doesn't look even half as a good visually, it is a good example of B grade though, yeah.

I agree Blood Curse looks good, but that doesn't mean it's not a B game. We don't know its full budget, but a lot of Sony Team games made back then were full on B. Stuff like Rule of Rose.

I thought Deadly Premonition was full blown Indie. No way is it B, surely? It's so laughably bad (yet good!).

Bad yet good movies are often called B movies.

[killthesagabeforeitkillsu]

Most of AAA budgets now go into marketing... Something YS won't spend a single cent on.

[Henry Spencer]

I thought Deadly Premonition was full blown Indie. No way is it B, surely? It's so laughably bad (yet good!).

Its actually another game that was in development for a long, long time. It even got scrapped from its original concept and reworked. I believe it was actually a rather expensive game for Access Games since they had to start the project anew. Their games just tend to be really bad on the technical side of things, even if their budgets are rather high (see also Drakengard 3 and Spy Fiction). Their games tend to waver on the mid tier to low tier areas.

[Himuro]

I thought Deadly Premonition was full blown Indie. No way is it B, surely? It's so laughably bad (yet good!).

Its actually another game that was in development for a long, long time. It even got scrapped from its original concept and reworked. I believe it was actually a rather expensive game for Access Games since they had to start the project anew. Their games just tend to be really bad on the technical side of things, even if their budgets are rather high (see also Drakengard 3 and Spy Fiction).

Did you play Drakengard 3? What'd you think? Miss talking about games with you Henry, we always had similar tastes for alternative gaming styles (both Killer 7 fans for instance).

[Reprise]

we always had similar tastes for alternative gaming styles (both Killer 7 fans for instance).

Nice namedrop on Killer 7. I love that game! It's one of my favourite games of the sixth generation.

[Henry Spencer]

@Himuro: Well, as you can see from my avatar I am a big Yoko Taro fan, but that game was a disappointment for a few reasons. Mainly for how bad the game ran; constantly running into bugs and just awful programming, bug checking; bad storyline up to the end of the first storyline (you basically have to play through until after that first ending to get to the good stuff); disappointing boss battles which didn't have anywhere near the same impact; terrible English dub; disappointing music, especially compared to Drakengard 1 and Nier!; only one playable protagonist (two including Mikhail) as opposed to Drakengard 1's style; linear style with no replay value and sloppy level design (which to be fair is a complaint that could be lodged against previous Drakengard titles, but I honestly think Drakengard 2 was better designed with better variety of maps and boss battles than Drakengard 3).

On the plus side the dragon flying areas were more Panzer Dragoon like than in past Drakengard games and the melee combat was fun in short spades, but got repetitive pretty damn quick considering how limited Zero's moveset was and how much the enemies get recycled ad infinitum and some of the music was good. I liked Zero's companions who accompanied her throughout; I also enjoyed the storyline more after how bad the first story was. Felt a bit like Taro wasn't on form with this game though and got pissed that all of his other concepts for Drakengard 3 got refused. His heart didn't seem to be in it.

So yeah, mixed bag really. I think now that Yoko is working with Platinum Games on Nier 2, the game won't be a copy and paste design job or technically shit like Access Games were with Drakengard 3, at least. And Nier 2 will have more awesome Nier music to listen to with character designs from my favourite game artist (Akihiko Yoshida) so it's win-win for me.

[Himuro]

Is Yoko an actual Platinum staff member now or is he on freelance or....?

[Henry Spencer]

Freelance. Former director/designer at Cavia. He just started his own (3 person) company a couple of weeks ago.