Gaming thoughts of the day

(Gaming discussion not related to Shenmue)

Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Kenny » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:53 pm

Well it was a joke, first of all, but what I like and dislike doesn't always determine the quality of what I do. James Cameron likes Alien Vs. Predator and Quentin Tarantino loves exploitation films (or anything, really).

You may love or hate both those directors but what's factual is that they're both highly successful critically and commercially. What they like doesn't dictate what they make.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Dorian » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:56 pm

Kenny wrote: Well it was a joke, first of all, but what I like and dislike doesn't always determine the quality of what I do. James Cameron likes Alien Vs. Predator and Quentin Tarantino loves exploitation films (or anything, really).

You may love or hate both those directors but what's factual is that they're both highly successful critically and commercially. What they like doesn't dictate what they make.

True.

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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby MiTT3NZ » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:57 pm

For future reference, I couldn't give two flying monkey's shits about what historical figures have to say on totally unrelated topics that you're trying in vain to draw parallels from, nor am I a fan of RE or "mindless shooters".

The fact remains that controls are one of the most important aspects of a video game, and can either make or break an experience. To suggest the notion is ignorant is hypocritical in itself.

Not all games need good graphics, not all games need a story, not all need weather systems, fighting mechanics, lighting, brilliant audio, puzzles, etc., but controls are essentially what make the game. Games are all about the controls. Without them, they wouldn't be games. Be it voice control, motion control, manual control, it's clear as day that the very link between the gamer and the game is one of, if not the most defining characteristic of the whole idea behind a video game.

It's not shallow, it's anything but, and if you're oblivious to this, then I suggest you put yourself in the same category as those who're talking about things "they have no factual idea about", as you're debating an opinion, while I'm stating a fact.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Dorian » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:59 pm

For future reference, I couldn't give two flying monkey's shits about what historical figures have to say on totally unrelated topics that you're trying in vain to draw parallels from, nor am I a fan of RE or "mindless shooters".

Arrogant and erroneous. It's not worth talking with you. Your words are as empty as your soul. Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!

Not all games need good graphics, not all games need a story, not all need weather systems, fighting mechanics, lighting, brilliant audio, puzzles, etc., but controls are essentially what make the game. Games are all about the controls. Without them, they wouldn't be games. Be it voice control, motion control, manual control, it's clear as day that the very link between the gamer and the game is one of, if not the most defining characteristic of the whole idea behind a video game.

Trololol. This is just plain retarded. Shenmue has awful controls and should have been canned if what you just said was true.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Rakim » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:19 pm

Or could it perhaps be that Dorian is more forgiving of less than stellar controls when they are a gateway into a universe with which he is very familiar or fond of?

I thought the Lupin the Third game for PS2 was awesome even though EGM only gave it a 6 from what I remember. But that's mostly because I love Lupin the Third.

Its a licensed anime game. The vast majority of them require you to be at least partially blinded by fandom to fully enjoy.

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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby MiTT3NZ » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:22 pm

What is erroneous about my feelings towards games? You obviously can't draw a line between fact and opinion.

As for Shenmue, when I say controls, I don't mean basic controls, I mean the whole lot. While using the D-Pad and the D-Pad alone is clunky, that's not all that's at your disposal. Hold down the run trigger, and the controls become canoe-like, left or right making you weave in and out, whilst feeling in complete control. In enclosed spaces though, you're right, they're awful.

The fact - not opinion - remains, controls are a vital part of the product. So going back to the original point, games don't "deserve" a chance if the controls aren't up to par. It's all up to the customer.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Dorian » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:43 pm

Rakim wrote: Or could it perhaps be that Dorian is more forgiving of less than stellar controls when they are a gateway into a universe with which he is very familiar or fond of?

Probably, but the thing that bugs me here is that the said controls really aren't that bad once you learn them. They remind me of Dead Souls in a sense. That's also a game that has awful controls... at the start. Once you've invested some time into it, it pays off.

VHD on the PSX isn't exactly Devil May Cry, but in the context of that console, it's not broken at all. I actually have more troubles controlling RE1-3, to be completely honest. This type of games is strictly based on analysing the placement of enemies and adjusting your path and attacks accordingly. It's not a combo bonanza, but that's one of the reasons why it feels like a horror game.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby St. Elmo's Fire » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:00 pm

St. Elmo's Fire wrote: the difficulty has ramped, in a proper sadistic manner, up from "just gaining confidence"-suitable, into a "What the fuck am I meant to do here?" nightmare.


Jesus fuck. :shock: So naive.
It was only lightly tapdancing on my balls before. Now, the steel toe caps are on and it's taking a run first...

St. Elmo's Fire wrote:I'll probably eventually swear at it


Oh, yes.

St. Elmo's Fire wrote:but it's one of those rewarding games where the anger is kept in check, 'cos there is absolutely no illusion that it was anyone else's fault but my own.


Yep, swearing at myself.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby OL » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:34 am

I think the idea that a game has to have good controls in order to be worthwhile is, as should be obvious, a very subjective matter.
Though control and interaction may be the basic areas upon which gaming itself is based, it's entirely possible for those areas to be less-than-stellar, but still made bearable and/or enjoyable by virtue of the game's other qualities.
Videogames have evolved to a point where they can't simply be considered as the "toys" that the majority of them once were in the 80s and early 90s.
As "toys," it is reasonable to assert that they have to control well, or else they've failed. It's completely fair in a case like that.
But we've come to a point where they're no longer just about hitting the high score.
Games now have complex stories, utilize advanced visual capabilities, and possess even more potential and possibility than they ever have before. They aren't simply "toys" anymore; videogames have matured into a legitimate, wide-ranging entertainment medium. By this point, their potential for expression extends well beyond simply controlling well.
Saying that "they must fulfil that criteria or else they've failed" is equivalent to the long-outdated notion that music has to be "beautiful" or "pleasant to listen to" in order to be worthwhile. A mindset like that would be completely ignoring the value of metal, electronica, or a good amount of the hip hop that's out there. It's not all pleasant to listen to by any stretch, but that doesn't mean you can't still enjoy the hell out of it.

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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Thief » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:49 am

Shenmue has awkward controls and I think most of us here would say it's a good game.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Kenny » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:41 am

So if the game's method of interaction is so broken to the point where it induces extreme migraines or impossible to use, you'd still play it?

Cause old school Resident Evil and Shenmue, they may not have the most fluid controls but they're bearable. So therefore they're playable. Shit like Superman 64 literally gave me massive headaches playing it, rendering its playability useless. Anything else like motion games or the new wave avant garde stuff really depends on how they make their game interactive.

Don't really side with Mittz saying its factual or OL saying its completely subjective, its all consensus with me. And if a majority says its downright unplayable, then its downright unplayable. If its split down the middle or teeter-tottering, then it's all up for grabs at that point.

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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Thief » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:52 am

I only read OL's post until now... so ignore my completely redundant post.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby OL » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:58 am

It's a good point. I personally haven't played anything I'd really consider "unplayable," but then I still haven't played Superman 64.
Either way, my point was more about some games having alternate qualities that make them worthwhile, such as a particularly interesting story or atmosphere, or some manner of expressive intent. A game like Superman 64 doesn't exactly succeed in anything like that, far as I can gather, so it's not unreasonable to just qualify it as a bad game.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby Who Really Cares? » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:26 am

All ill say is Deadly Premonition.
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Re: Gaming thoughts of the day

Postby MiTT3NZ » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:16 am

What, so it's okay for a game to have shit controls? The whole point was that this game doesn't deserve attention if it's been neglected by developers to the point that customers who played it deemed it unplayable. And, as said, this is due to shit controls.

To discard, ignore, or undermine such an important part of the medium is straight-up stupid. I never suggested that all games with shit controls should be burnt in a massive fire, I never said that controls are the only important aspect of a game, but there are no excuses for the developer to neglect the means of interaction, as it sours the experience. When we're talking about games, it's the complete product, as you said. So you'd buy a sports car with a flimsy cardboard steering wheel?

But, again, we're straying a little from the point, so I'll break it down.

- The initial point I was making was that gamers can't be blamed for a game having awful controls. It's the game developer's fault, not the fact that people "suck at it".

- Follow-up was that if the gamer is seriously not enjoying themselves after 10-20 minutes, then the game doesn't deserve their attention. Fair enough, it may have a brilliant story, awesome graphics, intense gameplay, etc. But if a video game's soured the experience for someone that much that early on, it deserves no more time. Early bird n all that.

- The summary was that I never said that all games have to have perfect controls. It should be the case, really, but that was never a point I tried making, I was pointing out it's importance. I mean, ffs, I've played games with shit controls. Deadly Premonition, Urban Chaos, Sonic Labyrinth. Not that I liked em, but we're goin off track. Again. I never said they needed good controls to be worthwhile, just that if bad controls are the reason someone doesn't want to play a game, then it's the developer at fault, and it's something that definitely need addressing.
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