Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leaders?

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leaders?

Postby KX-5 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:05 am

Ellllooooo Dojo ^.^

Okays....so a bit of a fair warning that I'm writing this post while I'm pretty drunk and high (totally legal where I leave and not part of the discussion). Anyways, since I surprisingly haven't seen this topic posted since the posting of aizen59's AMAZING interview with Suzuki (Thank you again on behalf of all of the dojo), I figured I would give us all a place to discuss this particular topic and while we're at it any thoughts anyone may have regarding the new information we've learned.

The main thing that was a big shocker to me was the post of this topic, and that is Ziming NOT being one of the four leaders of the Chiyoumen like we had all thought and assumed for YEARS now, dare I say even since the launch of Shenmue 2 on the Xbox. Any thoughts on who the other two now unknown leaders may be? And what do you guys think about the idea of the four grand masters? Hell, I just want to hear everyone's thoughts and theories on what we learned in general

LET'S GO \:D/
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby MiTT3NZ » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:47 am

Don't wanna ruin it for anyone, but they're probably...

...not any pre-established characters.
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby Axm » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:15 am

Its a real mystery now I guess, in that we simply just need more story progression. I imagine we'll eventually find out and I have high hopes we really will.
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby JMan » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:37 am

I was surprised at first when I found out of course because I think the ‘deleted scene’ comics pretty much established this as fact. If anything it just proves that whatever we might have assumed about the remaining chapters has likely already been redrafted (e.g. the whole 'Lan Di waiting in the cave' theory has also been ruined what with S3 starting in Shenhua's house).

Also, is it just me or does the bottom right 'grand master' in the GDC concept art slightly resemble the outline of Shenhua?
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby Perfect_Chaos » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:51 pm

i always had a theory that ziming is chai. im sure im wrong though
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby BlueMue » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:27 pm

It's definately a big surprise that Ziming is not one of the leaders after that side story in Shenmue IIx...
The person that's with Niao Sun is definately Ziming. And he looks just like the half visible silhouette in the picture of the four leaders. The designs definately match.

The question is if the side story is really canon. If it actually is maybe the designers just took his design from that one famous picture? This is definately a question that has to be asked in the next interview with Yu Suzuki.
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby JMan » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:39 pm

BlueMue wrote: The question is if the side story is really canon. If it actually is maybe the designers just took his design from that one famous picture? This is definately a question that has to be asked in the next interview with Yu Suzuki.


I believe David said on the 500K Facebook that things have changed since then. Ziming at one point was intended to be a villain but I think the story has since had a redraft. Would make sense seeing how the chapters have been cut down from 16 to 11.
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby johnvivant » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:54 pm

thank god the 'lan di waiting in the cave' theory can now be put to rest! never liked that.

and I wonder whether these '4 grand masters' have any relation to the '3 grand masters' who subdued the dragon, that were mentioned in the Shenmue online lore. same lineage of masters maybe?

I actually thought this a soon as I saw the image when it was released. it reminded me of the Shenmue online lore scroll with the 3 masters depicted there.

as for ziming not being the forth leader I don't understand how he cant be. it does all hinge on that comic scene being canonical, so maybe its not?
maybe yu Suzuki forgot, or confused certain characters or misunderstood the question?
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby DEVILLE_David » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:34 pm

There is no mistake.

Yu Suzuki told me : here are the last 2 bosses of the Chiyoumen, West and North.

I've seen them in details and trust me, Ziming is not one of them at all.

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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby JMan » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:48 pm

Unless Ziming is associated with the Chi You Men as a minor associate while not actually being of the four leaders I guess the comic may still be considered somewhat canon. Though if he has been completely cut and has no affiliation to the Chi You Men I suppose the comic is now non-canon. I hope we at least still see him though, otherwise if he has been completely removed I guess he might serve as a reminder of sorts to Ryo of somebody who followed the evil path and was never seen or heard from again.

Interesting idea about the grand masters, could very well be. I do still think the master at the bottom right [where 'Ziming' reads] looks similar to Shenhua's stance when she prophesises on the mountain so perhaps she's the lost fourth?

http://i.imgur.com/T2A1hyr.jpg

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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby johnvivant » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:13 pm

Image

Image

we infer that this is ziming because he holding one of the pieces of yin yang the other of which he gave to xiuying. we see him do this in the game before leaves her. he also recalls the phrase, 'become strong xiuying, stronger than me' which he says to her in the scene from the comic. so its definitely ziming.

where is he?
he is standing on a huge chiyoumen sign - could this be their headquarters? would chiyoumen leaders hang out together. maybe they just a had a meeting, after which they go back to their bases?

other possible roles:
he could be niao sun's apprentice or body guard, but would he speak to a superior the way he does? it sounds like he is speaking to either an equal or inferior.

maybe he is an assassin or sword for hire. xiuying said he followed an evil path. maybe he didn't join chiyoumen but just works for them.

that silhouette really does look a lot like ziming as he appears in the comic. long hair, tailed long coat,
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby JMan » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:12 pm

David, did Suzuki mention anything about Ziming once being a Chi You Men leader in development and then being changed so that now he isn't?

Are these concept art/comic appearances non-canon/old drafts now would you say?
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby Lan Di-sama » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:15 pm

Personally, I doubt that the plot changed much, if it all, from the time of Shenmue II's release through today. I just think we simply had it wrong about Ziming. All the clues were there sure - but keep in mind, the concept of 4 Chi You Men leaders had never even in the slightest been hinted at within the games themselves, so the Ziming bit that we mistook as foreshadowing probably wasn't meant to be a red herring to trick us into thinking he was one of these leaders.

David, can you comment on whether or not the 2 previously unannounced leaders look like they could fit that image with the shadowy figures, based off what you have seen?

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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby Fenix » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:14 am

In my opinion, grandmasters represents cardinal points too. But they wont be represented as heaven's beasts.

I mean, in China, martial arts style were separed by cardinal point. It used to exist north, south, east and west styles. I'm pretty sure Baji-Quan was an east one. I wont be surprised if ensei-ken was the style of another grandmaster.

And well. Remember the pics of the GDC. Akira was training with some kind of shaolin monk. Could it be a grandmaster?

I feel happy and proud with Yu. He changed completly the posible future story doing that. Shenmue has even more than I thought.
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Re: Thoughts on Ziming Hong NOT being one of the four leader

Postby DEVILLE_David » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:20 pm

Maybe at some point, Ziming was a leader (i cannot confirm, i don't know, i am just guessing) and then the story has changed. I think that's possible.

But from what i have seen, the character on the upper left fits perfectly, there is no mistake. The last character i saw could fit into that supposed Ziming shadow, that's how i feel about it.

Yu Suzuki told me that he was not one of the leaders so UNLESS he plan to change it during the development, Ziming is, right now, not one of the leaders, i am 100% sure.

He also said this :

"You can tell them the following names : Koutei and Gentei. I want fans to imagine them."

So pretty much, as a gift to all of us, he provided names so you could try to imagine how they look like.

Giving us everything through an interview, artworks, all story details would pretty much mean he's giving up and as you can see, that's not the case.

Let's keep pushing Sega or any other company that could make Shenmue III a reality because, trust me, Yu Suzuki is a genius and i would feel very bad if Shenmue III never get a release date.

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