Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby KX-5 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:33 pm

Ellllo all

I'm not sure if I can really call all of this a theory because I don't really have TOO many theories regarding
Shenmue anymore, but I do enjoy imagining and discussing where the series can go story wise and these ideas have
been rolling around in my head for a while now. Ever since we learned about Suzuki planning for the series to not
end until at LEAST a fourth game *shudders* I've been wondering how he plans to stretch the story out. This is
where the thought crossed my mind of Ryo possibly having to join the Chiyoumen for some reason. I can't really imagine Ryo getting close enough to Lan Di or any other leaders without somehow managing to infiltrate them. The Chiyoumen is supposed to be a ridiculously powerful underground black market cartel, I can't really imagine it would be possible to storm into their headquarters like it was with the Yellowhead and even that was a pretty rough thing to do for Ryo and Ren by themselves. I personally feel like this has always been Baihu's purpose if he were to show up in later games. I know a lot of people think Baihu is possibly the leader of the east, especially after it was confirmed that Ziming is NOT the eastern leader. I still personally don't see that (for starters his hair isn't long enough) and given the information in the interview with Suzuki last month with David knowing what Baihu looks like without the mask, it really doesn't seem as though Baihu fits. Just a small note, but perhaps if David reads this he can pop in and possibly answer if unmasked Baihu fits with the image of the leader of the east he saw or not? If he can't though its totally understandable because that would be a MASSIVE spoiler and I know there was a fair bit he's obligated to keep to himself (we have to keep our connections and trust with Suzuki after all!).

Taking all of this into consideration and of course assuming Baihu is not one of the leaders, I've always seen Baihu in either one of two roles if he were to show up later in the story. The first is perhaps as an instructor to Ryo, perhaps they encounter each other again somehow and chat then Baihu would begin teaching Ryo Tiger Swallow Style in order to help him understand in part how Lan Di fights. After their training is done Baihu provides Ryo a way to infiltrate the Chiyoumen, perhaps out of some common ground for understanding the desire for revenge. The second role is perhaps as a recruiter. After his defeat perhaps Baihu somehow manages to track Ryo down and offers to let him have a meeting with a captain or something within the Chiyoumen and that can be a way for him to get to Lan Di. With Baihu's space in Shenmue II being at the bottom of the Big Ox Bldg. I think it's safe to say after the Scout takes someone to Don Niu after they pass their test they all go down to Baihu for the final test. So I feel like Baihu is meant to be a recruiter/tester for the Chiyoumen, and if you don't beat him you probably die and obviously don't get to join the Chiyoumen (another reason I doubt he's one of the leaders, because why would a leader waste their time personally recruiting soldiers and let themselves be beaten?).

After Ryo manages to get inside of the Chiyoumen (and we get to see him in that snazzy black suit!) perhaps he ends up being defeated by Lan Di's bodyguards after finding a way to get to him or even by one of the leaders themselves perhaps, then he's left for dead somewhere and then he begins focusing on his training. After his defeat perhaps he begins to learn about the four grandmasters and ends up having to track them down and becomes a much better fighter. Shenmue can go ANYWHERE honestly and odds are I'm VERY far off and something like this will probably never happen. But its just a small thought I had about how the story could go, as always I love seeing what you guys have to say so let me know your own thoughts on the subject ^.^
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby elfshadowreaper » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:45 pm

I think more than any other mystery in Shenmue everyone wants to know about Baihu. He's the Boba Fett of Shenmue. We know precious little about him. But I think we can probably say he's not one of the "-tei" leaders because why would he be a street/cage fighter if he occupies such a high position. I'd just like to know if David recognized Baihu as being another character or if it's just a "so that's what his face looks like." I really doubt we know him but I do think you're right about him popping up somewhere else down the line. I imagine Baihu may tell Ryo the ins and outs of Tiger Swallow Style to help him defeat Lan Di.
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby DEVILLE_David » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:25 pm

Unless Ryo has to join the Chiyoumen to break them from the inside as a spy, i highly doubt he's going to join and organize a mirror apocalypse party.

Regarding Baihu... i know you guys want to know about this but there's nothing i can leak right now unless Yu Suzuki allows me to. While we were talking, i promised that if some things had to be kept secrets, i would and i cant take that back. And let's not say that if you want me to eventually work with him again in the future, i have to avoid writing too much and make sure that he can trust me.

Working with japanese people takes some time and i am a total stranger to him (well, not anymore but still am compared to some) and my main project is to keep a contact and work with him in the future. Not sure if that's going to happen to be honest, but i really want to.

Now, from what i am allowed to say... how can i write this down. I will make it pretty clear :

All the remaining Chiyoumen leaders, North, South and West are characters that you have never seen before. The only thing Yu Suzuki told me was :

"i want Shenmue fans to use their imagination and imagine how the North and West leaders may look like".

If Yu Suzuki wants us to imagine how they look like, that mean he doesn't want to give up on Shenmue and just release everything right away.

Yu Suzuki has the will to make Shenmue III, he wants to, there is absolutely 0 doubt about this. However, he has to take his time and think about how it can be done, with who, how much it would cost etc.

He didn't say anything regarding the budget, except that he had to work on it. Yu Suzuki is a smart man and if he ever gets the chance to produce it like he would like to, i am sure he will.

15 years is very long and if that's a long wait for us, just imagine how long that must be for Yu Suzuki who is holding all the Shenmue informations for himself without being able to release it like he would like to.

Just think about it even one minute, if you had the project berkley script on your desk for like 15 years, reading it here and there and couldn't share it with the fans trusting you, how would you feel ?

I won't give up on Shenmue III and won't give up on Yu Suzuki. Like i've said, if i was rich, i'd fund it right now, sadly i can't and money wise, i cannot help Yu Suzuki. But if i can provide help by spreading informations in english and french, every year if i have to, like a Shenmue Community Manager, then i will.

Sorry, i was a bit off topic but i really wanted to share his words again and make sure fans would not give up on Shenmue.

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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby shengoro86 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:15 pm

Ryo does not join the chiyoumen but he does visit them.
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby BlueMue » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:20 pm

I can imagine that he has to get really close to them in order to infiltrate their HQ or something like that.
Kinda like he did with the Yellow Heads.

But Ryo certainly won't join them in order to become a part of them.
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby KX-5 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:25 am

No no no, how you guys are saying it is how I meant it. He wouldn't join the Chiyoumen out of WANTING to join them, but as a way for him to get closer to Lan Di :p
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby south carmain » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:15 am

I really doubt it. One reason is because Ryo has made close ties with a lot of Chiyoumen enemies while taking down their allies so they would never trust him and another reason is because to maintain appearances Ryo would have to commit evil deeds (they are the chinese mafia after all) and the direction the story seems to have taken is to convince Ryo that revenge will not solve anything and not for Ryo to start justifying doing evil deeds to reach his goal.
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby ShenGCH » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:42 pm

Didn't Yu Suzuki once say something about Ryo eventually losing his desire for revenge somewhere along the way? (Right here, actually: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o4MHjEdYpQ&t=2m23s)

If so, what I'm reading from is that what was once a desire for revenge will be replaced with a desire for the truth and understanding of why what happened happened, and everything in-between. Ryo just wants to know why. Why did Lan Di kill Ryo's father? Why did Lan Di spare Ryo when he must have known that Ryo would be on his tail? What does he plan on doing with the Mirrors? Did Ryo's father really kill Lan Di's father? There are many, many questions.

In other words, it appears to be changing from "DIE!!!" to "Why?"
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby south carmain » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:46 pm

ShenGCH wrote:Why did Lan Di spare Ryo when he must have known that Ryo would be on his tail?

Well seeing how Lan Di made ryo his bitch it's safe to assume he doesn't see him as a threat.
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby ShenGCH » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:05 pm

south carmain wrote:
ShenGCH wrote:Why did Lan Di spare Ryo when he must have known that Ryo would be on his tail?

Well seeing how Lan Di made ryo his bitch it's safe to assume he doesn't see him as a threat.

While that much is true, what about Lan Di when Iwao (supposedly) killed his father? He was young and powerless, too, but he rose up to become virtually unstoppable, eventually enacting his own revenge.

Ryo and Lan Di are much more alike than first meets the eye, eh?
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby south carmain » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:11 pm

it's also possible that Lan Di was already grown and ridiculously strong when he found out about his father's murder. We already know that the mirrors were involved with the murder so it is possible that TenTei is the one who told Lan Di that his father was murdered and that the man who murdered him was the one who possesses the mirror to bring Lan Di in to the chiyoumen. It's also possible that Iwao wasn't the one who committed the murder but rather the chiyoumen did and their quest to get the mirrors dates all the way from back then. This would explain how Lan Di knew about the mirror and how it appeared to be his primary objective when visiting the hazuki household.

I think it's a bit early to assume that Ryo and Lan di's situations are identical.

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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby ShenGCH » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:51 pm

south carmain wrote: it's also possible that Lan Di was already grown and ridiculously strong when he found out about his father's murder. We already know that the mirrors were involved with the murder so it is possible that TenTei is the one who told Lan Di that his father was murdered and that the man who murdered him was the one who possesses the mirror to bring Lan Di in to the chiyoumen. It's also possible that Iwao wasn't the one who committed the murder but rather the chiyoumen did and their quest to get the mirrors dates all the way from back then. This would explain how Lan Di knew about the mirror and how it appeared to be his primary objective when visiting the hazuki household.

I think it's a bit early to assume that Ryo and Lan di's situations are identical.

Excellent point about the Chi You Men possibly framing Iwao for the murder. I'd considered this myself, but couldn't bring enough supporting points to light. It would certainly bring more context to how Lan Di knew exactly where to find the Mirrors. Lan Di is essentially a puppet in this sense; and, going by this, it wouldn't surprise me if Ryo and Lan Di eventually act with one another to destroy the Chi You Men, the root of all the tragedy in their lives. They've both been played BIG-time.

I think there's enough evidence to suggest that both Ryo and Lan Di's situations are the same if we look at things in black and white:

Lan Di: father murdered, apparently by Ryo's father; Lan Di gets revenge by killing Ryo's father

Ryo: father murdered by the person whose father was supposedly murdered by Ryo's father; Ryo seeks revenge, except with much greater difficulty

It's created quite the ripple effect on both their lives. But will the ripple eventually bounce back to the Chi You Men? Damn, son...
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby south carmain » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:01 am

Their lust for revenge is similar but I think without knowing the circumstances it's a bit early to say they are the same. I think they are purposely made to appear similar to clearly represent the cycle of revenge and Yu wants to show how pointless it is and how it must be broken before going deeper in to the circumstances involving the murders so that he can communicate with players a more noble message. I think I remember Yu saying that shenmue is also about morals and values and as such having Ryo give up on revenge while still in the dark surrounding lan di's circumstances would portray a stronger message than if it appears that he gives up on revenge because he learns Lan Di was tricked in to doing TenTei's bidding.
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Re: Could Ryo Possibly End Up Joining The Chiyoumen?

Postby KX-5 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:56 am

I agree that their reasons for revenge are remarkably similar. They cycle of revenge would never really stop, I mean lets assume Lan Di has a kid or something then ends up coming after Ryo to get revenge for killing HIS father. I'm really interested in seeing where the story goes after Ryo realizes revenge would be pointless, especially what brings him to realize that. I think Suzuki said something once where Ryo and Lan Di WILL have to fight, but Ryo would be fighting out of a need to protect someone or stop Lan Di from doing something rather than coming after him for revenge primarily. If anything I think Shenmue will end up being two stories, equal parts about Ryo and down the line Lan Di.
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