What arcade games would you like to see in Shenmue 3?

[Three Blades]

It really doesn't matter that VF Didnt exist in 87.
Clearly, in the Shenmue universe, VF exists already, because you can collect toys of it, and FukuSan has a poster of it in his room.
Plus, Ryo has a Saturn and the games run on CDs, which also didn't exist back then. I don't really mind whether the game itself appears in playable form or not, but "it didn't exist back then" clearly isn't a valid argument against it.

[shenmue852]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'll still say it-

none. none at all. I want to see Wei Chi (Chinese checkers, known as Go in Japan) I want to see kite flying, I want to see traditional spinning top games. But I don't want to see a single arcade game. Not because I didn't love the arcade games in the first 2 games, but because it would be absolutely incongruous with both the version of Guilin the game has already established and real life/history.

Even if you forget that China had a complete media blackout in 1987 in the real world, the game's world portrays Guilin and rural China as so cut off from the outside world that Shenhua has never heard of Japan- and in all likelihood the game would attribute this difference between China and Hong Kong to history rather than politics, but nonetheless reflective of an actual time and place without having to address the specifics of the political situation any more than they had to disclose who the mayor of Yokosuka was- but it was still 80s Yokosuka. In real life, Chinese villages at the time actually were quite isolated from even the rest of China, although people had obviously heard of Japan's existence

My point though is that one of the strongest things about Shenmue is conveying a sense of place- and putting anachronistic easter eggs in a rural area of 80s China (not even a city like Shanghai, where it would still be extremely unlikely to see capsule toys and arcades) would ruin the whole point of the contrast between traveling from a modern contemporary society (Japan and HK) to a rural, purely traditional setting)

[Yokosuka]

None. It's set in the middle of fucking nowhere. The available games should be along the lines of ball in a cup or playing football with rocks.

- Chi You Men is wealthy.
- We can imagine that a Guilin guy have emigrated successfully outside the land then imported some hi tech treasures from the metropolis.
- It could just be an underground place or the 222 room remake, not a truly arcade hub.
- Yu was over-obsessed with super realism for the two Shenmue, why would he screw it up ? He knows how to integrate things well.

[shenmue852]

It really doesn't matter that VF Didnt exist in 87.
Clearly, in the Shenmue universe, VF exists already, because you can collect toys of it, and FukuSan has a poster of it in his room.
Plus, Ryo has a Saturn and the games run on CDs, which also didn't exist back then. I don't really mind whether the game itself appears in playable form or not, but "it didn't exist back then" clearly isn't a valid argument against it.

I don't agree with you there. The capsule toy themes are easter eggs- capsule toys existed in the 80s, and used various licenses, so it's not jarringly out of place that sega would use its own licenses because even though those franchises weren't around, capsule toys were. But more importantly, the use of Sega licenses is a form of breaking the fourth wall (when a work of fiction intentionally draws attention to its fictitious nature without necessarily completely undermining its internal reality) while also placing their own brand into their game. That's why it would completely wreck the game's setting to have 32 bit 3D games, or for that matter iPhones and drones and HDTV's and Tesla cars.

To address your argument further, if we are obligated to believe that Virtua Fighter exists as a 3D fighting game in 1987 because of those toys, then we should be equally legitimately expected to believe that Shenhua is already a popular mascot for soft drinks because her image appears on winning cans from drink vending machines. Is that the case? obviously not, it's an easter egg, it's an example of the game playfully referring to its nature as a fictional video game made by Sega. Just like how "Sega" makes batteries and chocolate and canned Tuna in the game- Sega isn't portraying itself as an industrial conglomerate.

You might be wondering why it does all that playful Sega branding then- and the answer is, because Shenmue was a game developed not just for its own sake as a game, but because Sega wanted to spend 70 million to make a series that would promote its console and its own brand in the long term, so they took the opportunity to gently remind players that this was a uniquely Sega experience, despite the fact that they were also partnering with other real life brands for product placement.

Even the Sega Saturn in Ryo's house was placed there as a reference to the game's original development on the Saturn, rather than as a system Ryo could play 3D games on. but in the game's reality the Saturn is not a 32 bit console, it's just an easter egg/reference, and literally the only reason it's a Saturn and not a Sega Master System is because of the intention to refer to Shenmue's past with the Saturn, but not in a way that would undermine the 80s setting. It's the fourth wall reference thing again. The time period is an essential part of Shenmue, and I think violating the game's setting like that is a horrible idea. Plus, if you want a playable VF arcade cabinet in a Shenmue style game so badly, they did it in Yakuza already, so you really don't gain anything new.

[shenmue852]

None. It's set in the middle of fucking nowhere. The available games should be along the lines of ball in a cup or playing football with rocks.

- Chi You Men is wealthy.
- We can imagine that a Guilin guy have emigrated successfully outside the land then imported some hi tech treasures from the metropolis.
- It could just be an underground place or the 222 room remake, not a truly arcade hub.
- Yu was over-obsessed with super realism for the two Shenmue, why would he screw it up ? He knows how to integrate things well.

Your last sentence seems self contradictory, because it is absolutely inconceivable that an arcade cabinet could be smuggled all the way to rural China in the 80s. This stuff was under stricter prohibition and more unheard of than illegal drugs are today. 1980s India, Brazil, sure, it's possible. Difficult but still possible.

China though, no way. It's the kind of thing that, if seen in public would garner a LOT of attention.

And although the game doesn't refer to communism, it does definitively portray cultural isolation and absolute scarcity of modern technology in those regions.

I'd go so far as to say that if Yu Suzuki had his own funding for the game, he wouldn't put arcade games in, but because fans are funding the game, he's obligated to put in features from past games that weren't originally planned for inclusion. I hope they just keep it to capsule toys and one or game machines if they absolutely have to do it.

[Ryo Fhan]

It really doesn't matter that VF Didnt exist in 87.
Clearly, in the Shenmue universe, VF exists already, because you can collect toys of it, and FukuSan has a poster of it in his room.
Plus, Ryo has a Saturn and the games run on CDs, which also didn't exist back then. I don't really mind whether the game itself appears in playable form or not, but "it didn't exist back then" clearly isn't a valid argument against it.

I don't agree with you there. The capsule toy themes are easter eggs- capsule toys existed in the 80s, and used various licenses, so it's not jarringly out of place that sega would use its own licenses because even though those franchises weren't around, capsule toys were. The use of Sega licenses is a form of breaking the fourth wall (when a work of fiction intentionally draws attention to its fictitious nature without necessarily completely undermining its internal reality) while also placing their own brand into their game. That's why it would completely wreck the game's setting to have 32 bit 3D games, or for that matter iPhones and drones and HDTV's and Tesla cars.

Even the Sega Saturn in Ryo's house was placed there as a reference to the game's original development on the Saturn, rather than as a system Ryo could play 3D games on. but in the game's reality the Saturn is not a 32 bit console, it's just an easter egg/reference, and literally the only reason it's a Saturn and not a Sega Master System is because of the intention to refer to Shenmue's past with the Saturn, but not in a way that would undermine the 80s setting. It's the fourth wall reference thing again. The time period is an essential part of Shenmue, and I think violating the game's setting like that is a horrible idea. Plus, if you want a playable VF arcade cabinet in a Shenmue style game so badly, they did it in Yakuza already, so you really don't gain anything new.

I agree with blades, it's a game, it doesn't have to be completely realistic reality based. It can still have things for gamers that gamers like.

You say those things are easter eggs but they are still in the word. Just give us the ability to see a virtua, Daytona cab etc why not? It would do more for the series than hurt.

You already have some magical elements as well, but we can't have some arcade games? No reason to be so strict to it, it won't hurt anyone is the bottom line.

As far as to hat your guys are saying about the story elements? who cares, the game is there, not everything has to have a huge back story to be there...

[shenmue852]

Sounds like you'd like Yakuza more than Shenmue. Shenmue is a different kind of game, and you can see how games so similar are differentiated by the artistic aspect, which stuff actually does matter in Shenmue.

Yakuza is more targeted towards demographics that like "gamer culture" and "fanservice" and demand it in their games.

And I think it bears repeating, that if you insist on interpreting playful references in the game's minutiae (capsule toys, labels, etc.) as evidence that the references literally exist within the game's universe, then you'd have to explain how Shenhua is a mascot for soda and chocolates. And the answer is, she's not, any more than the Akira toy means that Ryo can go play Virtua Fighter 5 online against Fuku San back in Japan. When you can read things within their context and understand subtext, you can understand when it is appropriate and justifiable for something to be in a game, and when it is not, and the issue is not about whether Shenmue is supposed to be a simulation or not (it's not) but whether the game is true to its own spirit.

[Three Blades]

Yeah, my point stands.
Just because there's a VF arcade game doesn't mean they have to go out of their way to explain why there are 3d games there- who cares? It's a mini game, it doesn't matter. It's exactly the same as Ryo possessing CDs in 87, and it's exactly the same as there being VF toy capsules (or Nights into Dreams, for that matter).
I'm not saying I want VF in there, I honestly don't care either way, and actually, I agree with the people who are saying that there shouldn't be any arcades in S3 due to the game's location.
But it's a bad argument to say that VF shouldn't be in the game BECAUSE they didn't have 3D games back then.

[Ryo Fhan]

There will be tourist areas, no reason why one of the rooms there can't feature full arcade. Doesn't hurt anything imo

[Three Blades]

Yeah, I guess there could be. It's hard to say when we haven't played the game and haven't really seen the villages properly. It wouldn't bother me either way.
If the arcade was next to shenhua's house, then I'd have a big problem with it. Can't really comment on the rest of the game's villages though.

[shenmue852]

Yeah, my point stands.
Just because there's a VF arcade game doesn't mean they have to go out of their way to explain why there are 3d games there- who cares? It's a mini game, it doesn't matter. It's exactly the same as Ryo possessing CDs in 87, and it's exactly the same as there being VF toy capsules (or Nights into Dreams, for that matter).
I'm not saying I want VF in there, I honestly don't care either way, and actually, I agree with the people who are saying that there shouldn't be any arcades in S3 due to the game's location.
But it's a bad argument to say that VF shouldn't be in the game BECAUSE they didn't have 3D games back then.

CD's existed in 1987 bro. I think you're insisting on defining it on too literal a level, without taking into consideration specific context and the balance of things in a way that's oriented towards disregard for the game's qualitative propeties. Yes, in a technical algebraic context, CD's were mainly used for audio playback in the late 80's, not to store 8 bit console games on. Yes, fine, but this isn't the foundation on which you construct an argument to put whatever you want into a game and that still say it's plausibly set in a certain time period and place. To illustrate my point, the Saturn CD's may be anachronistic, as you argue, but you can intuitively understand it's not an aberration not on the magnitude of Ryo running those games off a USB stick or playing them through a streaming subscription to Playstation Plus. So it actually very much is about context and justification on a case by case basis.

I think it's necessary to filter these things through the most likely rational explanation- i.e why is there a Sega Saturn there? Is it because 32 bit games exist in Shenmue's 1987? And the obvious answer is, no it's a reference to the Sega Saturn because Shenmue was originally developed on that platform. Why does the Saturn take CD's? because it didn't have a cartridge reader. That's actually the explanation, it's that simple. They slightly bend (and bending is not the same as breaking) the rules of the game's reality to REFER to something from outside the game's time period setting, *but you'll also notice that bending of reality goes both ways*- the Saturn, despite being a Saturn with its fancy schmancy CD drive, existing out of its temporal jurisdiction in 1987, only plays 8 bit games which are each on individual discs, packaged in standalone disc editions that never existed. There's no reason why they'd ever produce CD's of individual retro games rather than a collection- but the thing is they're not retro games in Shenmue, they're contemporary. And if it's literally a 32 bit Saturn then it would play 32 bit games. But it doesn't. r

I think you can picture that including completely and significantly anachronistic features in a period setting is of a completely different magnitude than a much more slight deliberate inaccuracy that has a clear purpose for its inclusion (a reference to the game's own history)

I think your position is interesting in that you agree that there shouldn't be arcades, but if you want your final claim to be accepted, then you have to explain how it's any more justified and valid to put in computers that are 10 years ahead of computers from that time period than it is to put in smartphones and internet and a copy of Neutral Milk Hotel's acclaimed 1997 album "In an Airplane Over The Sea"- because going by your own claim, it's a "bad argument" that Shenmue shouldn't have internet for Ryo to Skype with Goro and Nozomi in the game "just because there wasn't LTE internet in 1987"

The Saturn thing is explainable as a reference and also as basically a skin for what is actually functionally a master system that takes CD's instead of cartidges. A skin with a specific reference purpose is completely different from an object that *functionally* has no coherence with the game's setting.

So back to Shenhua on drink cans and candy packaging- is the game leading you to conclude that Shenhua is a mascot? No! The game is just briefly subverting itself, briefly, in one of its most minor aspects. But if they put in touch screen vending machines, that would be a bigger subversion of the game's internal reality, and one that would stick out more and wouldn't serve a justifiable purpose.

And purpose is a huge part of it too. Perhaps, if you wanted to break the time period setting of the game to include Virtua Fighter, you consider the extent of the disruption (something that completely doesn't fit in either the game's own setting that has established 8 bit games as standard so a leap makes no sense and breaks immersion, and it's historically inauthentic as well) and also the purpose.

So what's the purpose served by porting Virtua Fighter into a game set in the '80s? A reference to Virtua Fighter, because it's relevant to the game's history? But that was already done in a non disruptive way with the capsule toys.

So now weighing the pros and cons, you see that the disadvantage is disrupting the immersion, because a period setting is about technology and culture and video games are a combination of both, and the advantage is...absolutely nothing. It's not even a new thing because the exact game (VF) has been ported to a game with the exact type of urban open world setting as Shenmue already, in Yakuza 5.

Ultimately, art can represent anything imaginable. But the detail of artfulness comes down to the question of whether something should be done rather than whether it can be. Like can they put a time machine in Shenmue III so Ryo can go back and stop Lan Di before he ever reaches the Hazuki, therefore canceling out the entire plot of Shenmue and Shenmue II? Well they can. But to weigh the question of whether they *should*, we have to consider whether this improves the overall quality of this specific game more than it detracts- and to address that question you differentiate the difference between Shenmue and Zelda Majora's Mask, which is a game where a time travel mechanic is appropriate.

I think there are further reasons why VF specifically shouldn't be ported into Shenmue- Shenmue's combat system is directly based off VF, albeit with modifications- but it still follows VF to a great extent. So to put in a video game fighting system that plays so closely to the actual fighting system in the game is not only redundant, but interferes with the immersion in the game, and its own internally defined separation between its virtual arcade and actual fighting system.

So given all that, there are only major drawbacks, and absolutely no gains from porting VF or any 32 bit game into Shenmue. The most important thing is to consider what does this specific game gain and lose from this specific feature? I think it's an important guideline for considering aspects of games on an individual basis. Like, Yakuza has hostess clubs where you can sing Karaoke. So here's something you could consider for inclusion in Shenmue- there were hostess bars in 1987 Japan, as well as karaoke. There's even a karaoke place in Shenmue. So, if Shenmue I were remade would it be appropriate to enable Ryo to visit hostesses and sing karaoke? Well, despite the feasibility with the setting, which unlike VF isn't precluded, it still isn't appropriate for Shenmue the way it is for Yakuza. But what if there were a soccer field somewhere in Yamanose or Sakuragaoka where Ryo could go and choose to play a soccer minigame based on Virtua Striker? For an athletic 18 year old in 80s Japan to casually play pickup soccer in their neighborhood is actually appropriate, so it wouldn't be a bad idea putting that in, as long as they establish (something that Shenmue should have done early on in the first game, in order to incorporate the minigames without detracting from the story) that Ryo can maintain his quest as his primary focus while still being present to the rest of his life while on downtime and/or not actively involved in an available segment of the main quest.

[Ryo Fhan]

As long as they aren't doing cell phones, mp3 players, arcade games and whatever systems would be fine for me. Wouldn't mind a ps1 or whatever.

[Three Blades]

If you're that bothered by the idea of VF in Shenmue, I highly recommend you never play Shenmue 2. You'd probably be butthurt because everybody speaks Japanese in China. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter. VF wouldn't break immersion, nor would it be any more unrealistic than what's already in the game.
You might as well say:
Shenmue 852: Ryo never changes his clothes, and has worn the same band aid for half a year. I don't like this game anymore.
(What you're saying is exactly like that except with 20 paragraphs of nonsense mental gymnastics around it.)
What a stupid, arbitrary thing to care about.

[DOS]

Sega presents

A game

Starring Ryo Hazuki as Ryo Hazuki

Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing

[Hyo Razuki]

Plus, Ryo has a Saturn and the games run on CDs, which also didn't exist back then. I don't really mind whether the game itself appears in playable form or not, but "it didn't exist back then" clearly isn't a valid argument against it.

Do you mean the Saturn or CDs? CDs existed since the early 80s I believe. My uncle once told me our family bought their fist CD player for the stereo around 1985 or 1986.

I also think it wouldn't break the immersion to have VF in there but I don't see it happening. I think they'll stick to the old 1980's YS games. Maybe use the four which are already in Shenmue and then add Power Drift or G-Loc. Something like that.

If the Baisha Mini Games X5 was the Arcade room stretch goal Yu talked about, that is.