Combat in the game

[Shin Pan Tzee]

As someone that loves fighting, both in real life and in gaming, the combat mechanics in a game are always very important to me. Shenmue already has a great pedigree on it by using Virtua Fighter as a base. However, we all have some things we'd add, take away or tweak in the game, so i'd like to know from you guys:

1 - What would you improve or add in the game's combat?
2 - Would you like more fights during the game, or the way it was in Shenmue 1 works better for you?

Personally, if they just use VF5 as a base to it, and fix how the camera works, they'll already have a pretty solid base there. What i want from it though, is to simply have more fights going on. It felt so good in the past games, but it didn't happen too much in the first game, and some moments that could be real fights were cutscenes with QTEs, which was always a letdown for me. Shenmue 2 did it a lot better though, and i hope they expand on it more. A deeper grappling system would be great too. So, what do you guys think?

[Zoltor]

As someone that loves fighting, both in real life and in gaming, the combat mechanics in a game are always very important to me. Shenmue already has a great pedigree on it by using Virtua Fighter as a base. However, we all have some things we'd add, take away or tweak in the game, so i'd like to know from you guys:

1 - What would you improve or add in the game's combat?
2 - Would you like more fights during the game, or the way it was in Shenmue 1 works better for you?

Personally, if they just use VF5 as a base to it, and fix how the camera works, they'll already have a pretty solid base there. What i want from it though, is to simply have more fights going on. It felt so good in the past games, but it didn't happen too much in the first game, and some moments that could be real fights were cutscenes with QTEs, which was always a letdown for me. Shenmue 2 did it a lot better though, and i hope they expand on it more. A deeper grappling system would be great too. So, what do you guys think?

Well the VF engine has traditionally been a rather slow/stiff feeling fighting system(the Shenmue variation thankfully improved on that quite a bit for the time), so I would just like it to move much more fluid, and faster. Aka I hope there is no delay in the moves, this would make it much more practical to do combos, and just make the whole fighting system much more enjoyable.

Lets be real, a martial artist of Ryo's skill level should be rather fast anyway.

[Gavan]

1 - What would you improve or add in the game's combat?
2 - Would you like more fights during the game, or the way it was in Shenmue 1 works better for you?

1 . Maybe make the combat system a bit more fluid and improve some of the animations. Maybe a combination of Batman Arkham -style combat with the old Virtua Fighter style could be cool. However I would be happy if they just kept the fighting system of the old games and didn't change anything too, it is good the way it is.

2. Something like Shenmue 2 is ideal for me. Not too many fights, but slightly more than Shenmue 1. Shenmue shouldn't become an action game.

[Zoltor]

1 - What would you improve or add in the game's combat?
2 - Would you like more fights during the game, or the way it was in Shenmue 1 works better for you?

1 . Maybe make the combat system a bit more fluid and improve some of the animations. Maybe a combination of Batman Arkham -style combat with the old Virtua Fighter style could be cool. However I would be happy if they just kept the fighting system of the old games and didn't change anything too, it is good the way it is.

2. Something like Shenmue 2 is ideal for me. Not too many fights, but slightly more than Shenmue 1.

Yea, Shenmue 2 had like the perfect number fights, so that would be a great percentage to base the amount of fights in Shenmue 3 off of.

[Yokosuka]

The Yu's vision about combat in 2000.



In 2013 :

Yu Suzuki : "Modern fighting games are too complicated, too “hardcore”, overly attracting. Those factors definitely limit the audience, because even fewer people are playing them, and at this rate the genre can sink into oblivion. That’s why I support a more simple approach to gaming.
[...]
Difficulty in fighting games is usually based on the requirements for accurate reaction and memorization of combinations. Which means that you need to accurately calculate the timing, and flawlessly press buttons. But I would like to make a win dependant on how a gamer thinks. To make him think, like, “If I hit with an arm now, and then kick with a leg, I could win.”

I want to make a win based on making the right decisions. And because of that the battle system in fighting games is still imperfect. Even in Virtua Fighter. If you're not able to press a button in the exact moment, and because of that you lose, the problem is not in your wrong decision. The game just set the task of reaction for you. Did you accomplish or fail the combination – this is on what a win depends. It would be better to attach a sensor on the gamer, so all his thoughts could be instantly and flawlessly implemented by the character on screen. That would definitely be a battle of decisions and be true fighting action in a good sense, not thanks to blood and violence. For example, suitable for this could be sensors that measure alpha waves in the brain. And it's not a distant future, people have already been working successfully in such a direction for a long time. There are people, for example, who have microchips that can control heart function. Of course, I doubt that someone will insert something inside of them for games, but if they can stick something temporarily onto them – why not? Another example in this direction is Kinect from Xbox 360. So we don't have to wait much longer and there'll be a time for new realistic fighting games."

Then in 2015, we heard :
- Kaz Hirai talking about a fighting system mixed with QTE for Shenmue 3.
- Yu Suzuki purposely refuses to ever pronounce "Virtua Fighter" in the Q&As when the fans ask him about.
- Advanced Free Battle system unlocked

[Zoltor]

The Yu's vision about combat in 2000.



In 2013 :

Yu Suzuki : "Modern fighting games are too complicated, too “hardcore”, overly attracting. Those factors definitely limit the audience, because even fewer people are playing them, and at this rate the genre can sink into oblivion. That’s why I support a more simple approach to gaming.
[...]
Difficulty in fighting games is usually based on the requirements for accurate reaction and memorization of combinations. Which means that you need to accurately calculate the timing, and flawlessly press buttons. But I would like to make a win dependant on how a gamer thinks. To make him think, like, “If I hit with an arm now, and then kick with a leg, I could win.”

I want to make a win based on making the right decisions. And because of that the battle system in fighting games is still imperfect. Even in Virtua Fighter. If you're not able to press a button in the exact moment, and because of that you lose, the problem is not in your wrong decision. The game just set the task of reaction for you. Did you accomplish or fail the combination – this is on what a win depends. It would be better to attach a sensor on the gamer, so all his thoughts could be instantly and flawlessly implemented by the character on screen. That would definitely be a battle of decisions and be true fighting action in a good sense, not thanks to blood and violence. For example, suitable for this could be sensors that measure alpha waves in the brain. And it's not a distant future, people have already been working successfully in such a direction for a long time. There are people, for example, who have microchips that can control heart function. Of course, I doubt that someone will insert something inside of them for games, but if they can stick something temporarily onto them – why not? Another example in this direction is Kinect from Xbox 360. So we don't have to wait much longer and there'll be a time for new realistic fighting games."

Then in 2015, we heard :
- Kaz Hirai talking about a fighting system mixed with QTE for Shenmue 3.
- Yu Suzuki purposely refuses to ever pronounce "Virtua Fighter" in the Q&As when the fans ask him about.
- Advanced Free Battle system unlocked

Sigh, Yu serious, and complex fighting games are a good things. What's so wrong with people actually having to learn something, inorder to actually make the most out of a game.


OMG I hope that last section doesn't imply Yu is going to use motion controls for combat, that would get old fast. Luckily It's not possible to make a combat system like that in Shenmue, using a single motion controller, so I think atleast for Shenmue 3 we're safe, but please don't ever aim for such, Yu.

[Yokosuka]

I don't think so. He just talked about an ideal way for the player to take control of his fighter rather the limited pad and buttons.
There are some medical prototypes that help disabled persons to control a PC directly through their thought and Yu probably dreams to somehow adapt this technology for his future arcade machines and revolutionize the genre.

Obviously, Shenmue 3 will keep a classical approach.

[Zoltor]

I don't think so. He just talked about an ideal way for the player to take control of his fighter rather the limited pad and buttons.
There are some medical prototypes that help disabled persons to control a PC directly through their thought and Yu probably dreams to somehow adapt this technology for his future arcade machines and revolutionize the genre.

Obviously, Shenmue 3 will keep a classical approach.

Yea I figured that, I just don't want Yu to trick him self into adding a gimped control scheme to the game.

Yea, I know of that as well, It's pretty damn cool, and I have always thought it would be godly, to beable to use a neuro interface to play like fighting games.

[Three Blades]

"QTEs mixed with free battles", I hope that doesn't mean that whenever you fight, there will be QTEs mid-battle every single time. It's ok sometimes, like when Ryo finishes a certain fight in a specific way because of the plot, (like the move that finished Dou Niu).
But it would be lame if every single battle in the game had a determined way that you have to win, or moves that you HAVE to do during that battle. Just let us fight freely most of the time please!
(I'm ok with having it when it's relevant though, like with the Dou Niu example, or that cowboy-hat chick).

Also, please don't introduce some weird-ass completely new system midway through the series... keep it the same at the core but build on it by making it smoother/better. Don't flip it on its head at this point, that would be stupid. Make a new series if you want to do that.

[Zoltor]

"QTEs mixed with free battles", I hope that doesn't mean that whenever you fight, there will be QTEs mid-battle every single time. It's ok sometimes, like when Ryo finishes a certain fight in a specific way because of the plot, (like the move that finished Dou Niu).
But it would be lame if every single battle in the game had a determined way that you have to win, or moves that you HAVE to do during that battle. Just let us fight freely most of the time please!
(I'm ok with having it when it's relevant though, like with the Dou Niu example, or that cowboy-hat chick).

Also, please don't introduce some weird-ass completely new system midway through the series... keep it the same at the core but build on it by making it smoother/better. Don't flip it on its head at this point, that would be stupid. Make a new series if you want to do that.

Yea I completely agree.

[Shin Pan Tzee]

But it would be lame if every single battle in the game had a determined way that you have to win, or moves that you HAVE to do during that battle. Just let us fight freely most of the time please!
(I'm ok with having it when it's relevant though, like with the Dou Niu example, or that cowboy-hat chick).

Yeah. I hope this QTE during battle thing doesn't get intrusive or takes away our freedom to fight as we want to, unless when it's relevant, as you said.

The only time a QTE worked in the combat mechanics in my opinion was in Yakuza, where some fights had a QTE when the enemy tried to hit you before it started, so if you get hit, you start with a bit less HP, and if you evade, you get a position advantage, also to complete some crazy special moves, that have the reward of doing more damage, but even then are just optional. Now, a Ryse type of QTE is just pointless and boring.

[Shibiryo]

It will all stay badass, re-assured. What's to worry and go all in-depth about here eh?

[rigo8582]

I personally would love it had combat system similar to sleeping dogs.

[Yokosuka]

I personally would love it had combat system similar to sleeping dogs.

Sleeping Dogs is an interesting case because it uses a kind of QTE in its combat system : when the opponent is highlighted in red, meaning that you can counter-attack him. I think a lot of modern games use a similar QTE-system.

[Shin Pan Tzee]

I personally would love it had combat system similar to sleeping dogs.

Sleeping Dogs is to me, the best combat ever done in open world game in the vein of GTA and Batman. It's much more grounded, realistic and brutal than Batman's half interactive flying ballerina combat. When people look at combat in open world games, they should look to that, not Batman in my opinion. That Mad Max game coming out took a few lessons from it and it's mixing it up with pro wresling too, which looks awesome.

In Shenmue's case, i think the Virtua Fighter style combat fits it really well, if not better though. Not only it won't stray away from the previous games, but also it is deeper when it comes to possibilities, with much more types of moves, and because by choosing wich aspect of your style you focus on, you can basically create your own style that fits you better, or experiment with others, instead of being just the all around kung fu fighter. If they just tweak the camera and movement of the character, it would be perfect.

What Shenmue could get from Sleeping Dogs though, is the use of enviroment. It was very well done in Sleeping Dogs, and i think it should be somewhat implemented in Shenmue too.