Kickstarter Update #47

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby mrandyk » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:02 am

The images we will be seeing this far from release are only being put out because it is a Kickstarter project and as backers we get a unique view at the development process. If this game were like your typical console release we probably wouldn't have seen any images for another year when the game might be in beta stage. Everyone needs to appreciate what the dev is putting out for us. It is a treat to see and hear about the development process.

There is a lot of work that needs to be done and no one is going to argue that point. The project is barely even past the planning stage and the tentative release date is 25 months away. It's not going to look like a finished product for quite some time and that is completely natural.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby shredingskin » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:15 am

mrandyk wrote: only being put out because it is a Kickstarter project


We didn't, those are public not only in KS but also in Shenmue.link , I guess that means they're giving chance of those those out to get to know what SIII might be before closing paypal funding.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Mark James G » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:38 am

Hey Guys, new to the forums (Kind of. Registered years ago but forgot the username and password but never posted!)

Anyways, I write tutorials (C++) over at Epic Games for Unreal Engine 4 and help people out on the AnswerHub and work on projects all the time with this Engine. I've done so for quite some time now. Why am I telling you this? Because hopefully I can provide a little insight on what you're seeing and why.

The reflective properties on Ryo's Jacket is just the material. The material hasn't been properly adjusted yet and even so let's not forget about the lighting that goes into a scene. Typically it's something you'll want to play with over and over again until you can get it just right. I'm assuming they're going to have a day to night cycle and that means a scene will have dynamic lighting. This can effect a material whether it's on a character, a static mesh actor( Think of an object) or general decals (assuming they want them lit or not.). This means it will constantly be tweaked from now until release.

The jacket will probably be toned down abit but it is obvious that they're still experimenting with the lighting. They're also not utilizing any Post Processing at the moment and if they are it's only for a slight color node but I don't think they're using any in the second and fourth screenshot. I think it goes without saying that this will change and right now they're experimenting with an engine that they probably never used before so it takes abit of time and energy to figure these large frameworks out.

It's an exciting time for all of us as Shenmue fans and of course we want this to be the best it can be but try to remember that this project is going to see alot of changes from now until release.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Zoltor » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:54 am

Mark James G wrote: Hey Guys, new to the forums (Kind of. Registered years ago but forgot the username and password but never posted!)

Anyways, I write tutorials (C++) over at Epic Games for Unreal Engine 4 and help people out on the AnswerHub and work on projects all the time with this Engine. I've done so for quite some time now. Why am I telling you this? Because hopefully I can provide a little insight on what you're seeing and why.

The reflective properties on Ryo's Jacket is just the material. The material hasn't been properly adjusted yet and even so let's not forget about the lighting that goes into a scene. Typically it's something you'll want to play with over and over again until you can get it just right. I'm assuming they're going to have a day to night cycle and that means a scene will have dynamic lighting. This can effect a material whether it's on a character, a static mesh actor( Think of an object) or general decals (assuming they want them lit or not.). This means it will constantly be tweaked from now until release.

The jacket will probably be toned down abit but it is obvious that they're still experimenting with the lighting. They're also not utilizing any Post Processing at the moment and if they are it's only for a slight color node but I don't think they're using any in the second and fourth screenshot. I think it goes without saying that this will change and right now they're experimenting with an engine that they probably never used before so it takes abit of time and energy to figure these large frameworks out.

It's an exciting time for all of us as Shenmue fans and of course we want this to be the best it can be but try to remember that this project is going to see alot of changes from now until release.


Good points, just one problem, Yu has "chosen" to adamantly force a release date of the end of 2017 sigh. He's refusing to budge at all on such, so sadly he doesn't have much time.

A Shenmue 3 of all things, without the unlimited resources that Yu is used to working with, should be planned out as a 3 year project, not 2.

Glad to see someone who knows the engine extensively, go in detail about what's causing things to be that way, and such though.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby shredingskin » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:04 am

Mark James G wrote: The reflective properties on Ryo's Jacket is just the material.


About that, Ryo original jacket does not only not work because the material seems to reflect as it has smoothing, but because it seems that even the regular texture seems like a pretty much default leather.

Like:
Image

And kinda this:
Image
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Himuro » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:06 am

December 2017 is just a slated release date. Do you expect them to not have a estimated release date at all? Because that's far worse. Why must you be so demanding of everything involved, even a reasonable release date that means two and a half years of development? Just seems like you're complaining to complain rather than just seeing where this all goes.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Mark James G » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:26 am

shredingskin wrote:
Mark James G wrote: The reflective properties on Ryo's Jacket is just the material.


About that, Ryo original jacket does not only not work because the material seems to reflect as it has smoothing, but because it seems that even the regular texture seems like a pretty much default leather.

Like:
Image

And kinda this:
Image



I think I understand what you're trying to say.

Image

The diffuse texture on the jacket (Note the sponge tool being used to highlight certain 'light' spots) is simulating a reflective property. Now, I haven't explored anything with the Shenmue 1 and 2 files using an emulator but i'm pretty positive the Dreamcast did not utilize bump maps or normal maps which meant that reflective properties would have to have been drawn on manually. Very talented artists worked on Shenmue 1 and 2, especially given the resolution limit that the dreamcast likely had.

Anyways, regarding Ryo's current jacket:

Image

You can see quite abit of reflection here but let's assume for a moment that there is only one light source going on. This is bound to create distortions and the fact that there is hardly a scene in that screenshot. Light isn't being reflected properly because I can assure you that in that shot they're not using any Reflection Nodes. Why would they? They're still working on the levels so it only makes sense.

Image

This shot is taken in one of the various demo levels that utilizes nothing but reflection and lighting. It really makes an exaggerated effort with emissive lighting (Glowing details) that is further embellished by a post process effect. The same jacket is less reflective except for the spots that it should be. The scene (Level) really makes a difference and depending on how some of the reflection nodes are used along with Post Processing effects it can really shape something.

Phew, sorry for all of that but... hopefully that should clear it up for you guys.

Zoltor wrote:

Good points, just one problem, Yu has "chosen" to adamantly force a release date of the end of 2017 sigh. He's refusing to budge at all on such, so sadly he doesn't have much time.

A Shenmue 3 of all things, without the unlimited resources that Yu is used to working with, should be planned out as a 3 year project, not 2.

Glad to see someone who knows the engine extensively, go in detail about what's causing things to be that way, and such though.


Yu Suzuki has never striked me as a guy to release something that isn't finished or at least that he feels is unfinished. We've waited over a decade for Shenmue 3 and if Yu Suzuki wants to continue the series after Shenmue 3 he will want to rely on more then kickstarter investments which means a possible re-invitation to Sega or opening up the company publicly for investors (Or privately but that is pretty risky and less cost effective for a company to maintain control) and that option is only desirable if the product is well received.

True, Yu Suzuki has been out of the gaming world for quite some time but... every developer knows the pressure never changes.

Kick! Punch! It's all in the mind.
If you wanna test me, I'm sure you'll find.
The things I'll teach ya is sure to beat ya.
But nevertheless you'll get a lesson from teacher now
Kick,
Punch,
Chop,
Block.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Zoltor » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:29 am

Himuro wrote: December 2017 is just a slated release date. Do you expect them to not have a estimated release date at all? Because that's far worse. Why must you be so demanding of everything involved, even a reasonable release date that means two and a half years of development? Just seems like you're complaining to complain rather than just seeing where this all goes.



He's refusing to accept a paypal window of more then a few months, because it will get in the way of his desired release date(that was Yu's reason he gave, for only having Paypal available for such a short time).

Trust me, Yu has "no" intention what so ever, in allowing Shenmue 3 to take longer the 2 years.

Either Yu is rushing or he truly has no clue on how long games take to develop, when you don't have 300 people helping with it lol.

To Mark: Yea I know, but that only makes Shenmue 3 even more crucial, and every flaw all the more scary.

While it probally wont be a masterpiece fair enough, but if it Isn't atleast very good, we'll be in a worse position then we've been in ever since Peter More doomed Shenmue 2. Shenmue 2 is godly, but because of Peter Moore, the entire Shenmue franchise has a stigma on it for supposedly not being something that sells. If that were to happen, we can forget about a Shenmue 4 nevermind 5.

On the otherhand, if Shenmue 3 doesn't end up being the mess It's hinting at being, and ends up being a very good game all around, it will sell well enough to get investors to make Shenmue 4, and hopefully 5 that are truly masterpieces unlike the world has seen before.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Himuro » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:38 am

Zoltor wrote:
Himuro wrote: December 2017 is just a slated release date. Do you expect them to not have a estimated release date at all? Because that's far worse. Why must you be so demanding of everything involved, even a reasonable release date that means two and a half years of development? Just seems like you're complaining to complain rather than just seeing where this all goes.



He's refusing to accept a paypal window of more then a few months, because it will get in the way of his desired release date(that was Yu's reason he gave, for only having Paypal available for such a short time).

Trust me, Yu has "no" intention what so ever, in allowing Shenmue 3 to take longer the 2 years.

Either Yu is rushing or he truly has no clue on how long games take, when you don't have 300 people helping with it lol.


....I don't know where to start.

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby shredingskin » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:49 am

Mark James G wrote:You can see quite abit of reflection here but let's assume for a moment that there is only one light source going on. This is bound to create distortions and the fact that there is hardly a scene in that screenshot. Light isn't being reflected properly because I can assure you that in that shot they're not using any Reflection Nodes. Why would they? They're still working on the levels so it only makes sense.

This shot is taken in one of the various demo levels that utilizes nothing but reflection and lighting. It really makes an exaggerated effort with emissive lighting (Glowing details) that is further embellished by a post process effect. The same jacket is less reflective except for the spots that it should be. The scene (Level) really makes a difference and depending on how some of the reflection nodes are used along with Post Processing effects it can really shape something.


That's what I'm telling you, it's that the diffuse texture for the old material gave the perception that it was a very used jacket.

Those (in the old jacket) were not (for me) reflections, but old use. I know you can use an occlusion map to make shadows "harder", but what I'm telling you is that the old jacket seems to be very worn because of the diffuse texture, not that the texture was to give a sense of lighting, but that it actually had "worn marks" (and by that I do not mean cranking up the normal map), maybe a secondary detail map.

Kinda like this but not that much:
Image

It's not the reflections, it's that seemed really worn.

Maybe Yu-san just did that to create "texture reflections" but after playing the game so much, to me, it's like discolorations to the leather more than relections.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Kiske » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:45 am

Zoltor wrote:
Himuro wrote: December 2017 is just a slated release date. Do you expect them to not have a estimated release date at all? Because that's far worse. Why must you be so demanding of everything involved, even a reasonable release date that means two and a half years of development? Just seems like you're complaining to complain rather than just seeing where this all goes.



He's refusing to accept a paypal window of more then a few months, because it will get in the way of his desired release date(that was Yu's reason he gave, for only having Paypal available for such a short time).

Trust me, Yu has "no" intention what so ever, in allowing Shenmue 3 to take longer the 2 years.

Either Yu is rushing or he truly has no clue on how long games take to develop, when you don't have 300 people helping with it lol.


Quite the contrary. Having a limited Paypal campaign makes a lot of sense to me. They need to have a defined budget and be able to prioritize the developpment accordingly.

Beside that, how do you think Yu Suzuki is going to pay his employees if the developpment lasts 42 month instead of 30?

You make your criticism sound so easy, but how would YOU handle this project given the unusual circumstances?
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Peter » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:47 am

Zoltor, lay off of the Yu bashing. Quite tired of it frankly. You dont have a clue what Suzuki thinks, knows, feels, will decide, likes, dislikes, choses, rejects so stop claimijt to know.

It's the only time you will be told. Keep it up and you will be warned.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby Anonymous81 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:59 am

Well, I'm out. This bitterness and consternation is not why I participate in online discussions. Having my posts misrepresented and being told what I can and can't think/feel is where I'm done basically.

For the record: game looks great to me for 3 months. I can and do respect the views of those who disagree. I stand by what I said.

I'm just going to back the game silently and privately other than the tweet-a-thon regularly.
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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby KidMarine » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:07 am

Anonymous81 wrote: Well, I'm out. This bitterness and consternation is not why I participate in online discussions. Having my posts misrepresented and being told what I can and can't think/feel is where I'm done basically.

For the record: game looks great to me for 3 months. I can and do respect the views of those who disagree. I stand by what I said.

I'm just going to back the game silently and privately other than the tweet-a-thon regularly.

You're not going to stop posting are you? You're a great poster and I really like reading your views on things!

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Re: Kickstarter Update #47

Postby DOS » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:06 am

phpBB [video]
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Zoltor wrote:Kid NoCon's video's didn't have characters
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