Religion

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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 1:30 am

Good interview on the above positions:

http://www.uscatholic.org/node/5076
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Re: Religion

Postby south carmain » Tue May 23, 2017 1:32 am

Thief wrote: Was Einstein a Christian? I had thought he believed in Spinoza's conception of God.

He wasn't Christian, I was using him as an example of an ethnic Jew who was also a prominent scientist that didn't believe in the Jewish Bible.
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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 1:36 am

Anyways, the more I read theology and talk to atheists the more I think most atheist arguments are poor. They argue them as logical and rational but most of them (especially the bulk of Problem of Evil) are emotional arguments rather than rational. The more I grow in faith the more I find atheist arguments to be pathetic, even if they're understandable, and they show just how poorly religion and philosophy are taught. Most atheist arguments from modern "new" atheists I've found to be nothing more than silly "gotcha" arguments. It's even more telling because most atheists envision believers think of a giant man in the sky when, if properly researched, they would realize the majority of believers don't think this. So many atheists think you're stupid and use sophomoric reasoning against belief in a way to one up and make themselves look smarter than you than actually trying to engage and debate. It's like debating with school children and the amount of assumptions they make, from assuming you think the entire bible is literal to thinking you're anti-science is baffling as it is embarassing.
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Re: Religion

Postby shredingskin » Tue May 23, 2017 1:39 am

@South and Himuro

I paint with big strokes, because it's the level of abstraction I think it requires, I guess there are christians that believe that god is an alien from xenex or whatever. And it meshes with the science thing that Himuro said, there have been quite a lot of scientific personalities that were killed by the religious institutions as heretics (some even already posted), no matter what the individual inclination was (and I say it's not relevant, because those institutions are somewhat a reflection of what the societal doctrine was, specially for religion that being chained to old books changes more slowly that the conduct codes/morality of a societal needs).

@Unholy There's no reason why atheism should take into account anything, it's not a set of beliefs, it's a lack of belief in deities, nothing more, nothing less. Even if some "professional atheists" dwelve in those realms. There's no need to explain why someone is an atheist when the reason is in the word, "because I don't believe in deities" is a valid answer.

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Re: Religion

Postby UnHoly Bible » Tue May 23, 2017 1:45 am

shredingskin wrote:

@Unholy There's no reason why atheism should take into account anything, it's not a set of beliefs, it's a lack of belief in deities, nothing more, nothing less. Even if some "professional atheists" dwelve in those realms. There's no need to explain why someone is an atheist when the reason is in the word, "because I don't believe in deities" is a valid answer.


Oh ok, yeah I was more thinking in the context of the big ol image of "imagine no religion" in my face scrolling down the page.
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Re: Religion

Postby south carmain » Tue May 23, 2017 1:48 am

shredingskin wrote: @South and Himuro

I paint with big strokes, because it's the level of abstraction I think it requires, I guess there are christians that believe that god is an alien from xenex or whatever. And it meshes with the science thing that Himuro said, there have been quite a lot of scientific personalities that were killed by the religious institutions as heretics (some even already posted), no matter what the individual inclination was (and I say it's not relevant, because those institutions are somewhat a reflection of what the societal doctrine was, specially for religion that being chained to old books changes more slowly that the conduct codes/morality of a societal needs).

I think this is too broad of a generalisation for such a complicated subject, there are so many different factors to take in to account that saying it is the cause of religion would be unfair in my opinion.
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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 1:54 am

A big problem with that argument is that you assume they were executed for their scientific belief and use this as proof that the Church is anti-science. A classic example is Gallileo. People say he was tortured and executed when he wasn't. Dude was placed under house arrest and lived the good life. And then people paint Christianity as anti-science. It's illogical.
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Re: Religion

Postby shredingskin » Tue May 23, 2017 1:54 am

Himuro wrote:I think most atheist arguments are poor.


It's a simple burden of proof, and let me say this straight, most of the time the real reason is "because I want to". At a personality level both the believe of god and the lack of it, gives the person the sense of "knowing", and with that notion is easier to travel the path of living. Some people find the lack of a god comforting in the meaning that we are what we are and we get what we get. Some religious people also feel the same, but think of a non interventionist god that is so interventionist that is basically the same if it didn't exist. And some people find the believe in a god comforting.

For me is very simple to be atheist, simply because "god" is such a bullshit term that encompass "everything" and means nothing (and needs to be painstaking-timeconsuming endeavor to address in individual matters).

We are fucking thrown into the world that is full of danger, and aware of our mortality, different people cope with it by different means.

UnHoly Bible wrote:Oh ok, yeah I was more thinking in the context of the big ol image of "imagine no religion" in my face scrolling down the page.


I do think that no religious societies can exist, look at countries, you follow the rules (law) not because there's a god, but because it's tacitally agreed that they're in place to benefit you while not benefitting any/everybody else. Even if you don't believe that the state can/will guarantee that, there are institutions set in place to enforce those rules, and you can take a gamble on it.

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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 2:48 am

shredingskin wrote:
Himuro wrote:I think most atheist arguments are poor.


It's a simple burden of proof, and let me say this straight, most of the time the real reason is "because I want to". At a personality level both the believe of god and the lack of it, gives the person the sense of "knowing", and with that notion is easier to travel the path of living. Some people find the lack of a god comforting in the meaning that we are what we are and we get what we get. Some religious people also feel the same, but think of a non interventionist god that is so interventionist that is basically the same if it didn't exist. And some people find the believe in a god comforting.

For me is very simple to be atheist, simply because "god" is such a bullshit term that encompass "everything" and means nothing (and needs to be painstaking-timeconsuming endeavor to address in individual matters).

We are fucking thrown into the world that is full of danger, and aware of our mortality, different people cope with it by different means.

UnHoly Bible wrote:Oh ok, yeah I was more thinking in the context of the big ol image of "imagine no religion" in my face scrolling down the page.


I do think that no religious societies can exist, look at countries, you follow the rules (law) not because there's a god, but because it's tacitally agreed that they're in place to benefit you while not benefitting any/everybody else. Even if you don't believe that the state can/will guarantee that, there are institutions set in place to enforce those rules, and you can take a gamble on it.


Saying burden of proof is all you need is an example of the lack of humanization in many atheist circles. They just see theists as a target to show their intellectual superiority. In reality, leaving it to burden of proof and not creating a foundational layer for your worldview is intellectually dishonest as it is lazy.

But you're right. The burden of proof does lay upon us. This doesn't excuse bad, emotional arguments - from either side, I may add. But the burden of proof doesn't mean you've "won" the argument and even that you're right. It just makes the debate more lop-sided.

But it's funny you mention the burden of proof when humans have a natural capacity to search and seek God. Even atheists do this. I'm not even talking about this from a religious perspective. It was mentioned earlier how many atheists still have views that clash with their lack of belief. It's almost like we as a species are driven to seek this entity - whatever it is.

It's also funny you mention how we're thrown in to a harsh world. This is in no way an argument against religion, especially since it remains the core of so many religions, especially Christianity. And no, I disagree about our morals. We tend to know what is moral and betray our own morality. We know it's wrong to hate, but it's easy to hate. Humanity is completely inconsistent regarding its morals, and most of that cruelty you mentioned is man-made: war, rape, abuse, poverty. We could solve world hunger and poverty right now if we wanted to, but we won't. Because man is broken and betrays his universal morality. This is the core of Christianity.

As for your response to Unholy Bible, I'm not sure what good you think a society without religion would do. Only 7% of the worlds wars are started due to religion. It would be naive, especially after the 20th century, to think that getting rid of religion would solve anything, especially since that very century showed how powerful and good a force religion is and can be (civil rights movement for instance). Today's social movements are predicated upon a foundation of secularism and yet they treat humanity as nothing more than labels. You're a snowflake if you're a Trump supporter; you're a racist/misogynist/whatever if you're not. In all of this, we have forgotten the Golden Rule and this truly shows what a secular society can achieve: a society where everyone is all about getting theirs and nothing more. I personally find the shallowness of today's society to be endemic to its secularism; religion stands as the one alternative.

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Re: Religion

Postby south carmain » Tue May 23, 2017 3:05 am

When it comes to morality I noticed something when observing drastically different societies, the conclusion I came to is that we all have the same basis for morals what differs is how societies justify infringing them. For example I will take 3 different core morals and 3 rather drastically different societies: the 3 morals are adultery, theft and murder as for the societies I will take the Roman empire, Ancient China and early Islam.

In the case of these 3 societies that have drastically different roots we see law being created surrounding these 3 core morals, the only difference being in what case is it ok to break them. in ancient Rome women would be killed for adultery however men could generally play around because it was considered that only the woman could bring foreign blood in to the family if she got pregnant while at worst the man would simply have a second family. In Islam you could Marry multiple women and have concubines while in ancient China polygamy was a bit vague on how it was accepted by society. In the case of Murder, what qualified as murder was also greatly different, for example n Islam killing someone for insulting the prophet isn't murder, in ancient Rome human sacrifice in certain instances wasn't either and the same for China. As for theft the three generally agree that if it is a result of war then it isn't theft but lawful booty despite knowing that theft inside their own societies is inherently wrong.

Now the reason I make these comparisons is to show that although it is true that morality is subjective to a certain extent, the subjectivity only comes from justification not a natural evolution and we all share that core morality of what is right and wrong. The difference between Christianity and other world views is that it rejects any subjective justification of morality and only recognises the core morals that are naturally ingrained in to all of us.

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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 3:10 am

You said it far more charitable than me.
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Re: Religion

Postby BigTuna » Tue May 23, 2017 4:35 am

EDIT: Too personal. No one cares.
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Re: Religion

Postby Thief » Tue May 23, 2017 4:45 am

south carmain wrote:
Thief wrote: Was Einstein a Christian? I had thought he believed in Spinoza's conception of God.

He wasn't Christian, I was using him as an example of an ethnic Jew who was also a prominent scientist that didn't believe in the Jewish Bible.


Not sure why I thought you said he was Christian. I need my eyes checked.
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Re: Religion

Postby shredingskin » Tue May 23, 2017 12:44 pm

@Himuro, asking for the burden of proof is the most normal question to ask if you don't believe someone/something, you wouldn't call it dehumanization in any other context. Specially for something like "god" that there's no real definition of it.

Humans Are good finding patterns, thanks to that we can have language, and we use that to try to understand the world. We tend to anthropomorphize everything, to stars, to planets, to trees, to pets, etc. Because it's our domain of understanding and we do that just trying to translate that existence to ours. It's not hard to see that most of the representations of gods have a common ancestry in the sun, and humans are hierarchical animals, so it's easy to justify the nature of that in a madeup god (as you can see in most oldest tribal religions like shinto). I don't agree that humans search for god, I could agree they try to search for answers and the antropomorphization of phenomena was a tool to quench the thirst of knowledge that was out of their domain.

BTW never said that "living on a harsh world" means there's no god, but it is indeed a reason of why people create religions (specially since most of them like to tackle afterlife).

@south carmain: I don't know why you call those not natural evolution, we are highly social animals, we evolved a great sense of empathy to make those societies work. You can see those "morals" in most pack animals (and specially those with bigger packs), so it's not hard to imagine a world where those rules don't need to be justified by deities.

I do agree that religions in history played a big role to find societal cohesion (in societies more complex than those of pack animals), but I don't think it's still needed today (but that's another matter).

Today I think that religion divides people more than it unites.

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Re: Religion

Postby Himuro » Tue May 23, 2017 1:12 pm

It's dehumanization of the person you're debating. When all you have to say is "burden of proof" it's barely an argument much less a conversation between individuals and any other argument would be labeled as dehumanization similarly.

Anyways, the point of Carmain's argument isn't just evolutionary morality. It ties into the fact humanity has an intrinsic, universal sense of morality that we betray. Humanity knows what's moral, as we betray that sense of morality. Christianity explains the reason why.

Anyways, what I said about seeking God had nothing to do with explaining phenomena. It has to do with the fact that we are broken as a species. We try to fill life with anything, whether it money, sex, or whatever. We are never fulfilled. We can have a goal of doing something and when we finally do it, it's hollow and empty. Because we try to subsist within the material. But material does not bring humanity full happiness. In order to find fulfillment, one must seek God. It is God they we seek in our search for happiness. And when that hole in our hearts is filled, we become content. The search for God has nothing to do with material or explaining material phenomena. It is intrinsic to the human condition and our brokenness to seek what isn't material and transcendent. This is what theists call God.

shredingskin wrote:Today I think that religion divides people more than it unites


Many of the pet topics today that divide have nothing to do with religion. Most of the biggest charities in the world are religious. Have you fed the poor, clothed the naked, and helped the dying? You can certainly do those things outside of religion but religion makes these things far easier to accomplish due to sheer access. You also ignored my point about religion doing good in the world such as the civil rights movement, Vietnam war protests in Buddhism, Ghandi used the gospel as a way to protest.

And yet in today's secular world people are more divided than ever.

This is why it's hard to take many atheists seriously. Most are so hardline and equally as fundamentalist as the people they critique. Certainly it is true that religion can divide. But it also heals and builds bridges and be a force of good.
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