'New Rules' discussion thread.

[Yama]

Discussion regarding new Terms of Service starts here: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=43301&start=16

Hey everyone. This has been one crazy ride, but let's bring it to a halt. Let's address it, fix it and most of all grow from it. Let's take a step back first...

When I first re-did this website, you all know I took a lot of heat. Sure, it garnered 99.9% love, but some of the members were scared of change and pretty much made me the whipping boy in return. It's not if it was or was not warranted that matters anymore, it was how it all panned out. Some admins would snap, others would run... I took it and I learned from it. With that, I received a ton of PM's from members showing their support. In trying to understand all ends I was also happily surprised to receive PM's from just about every member that had an "issue" and each one of them was showing their support and even apologizing. They appreciated the effort from the start, but were mainly afraid I did not understand this group. In some ways I didn't, but obviously I did over time. Either way, I embraced it more so than pushed it. The idea that each and every one of them PM'd me, that showed the human and caring side to these members.

With the above said, I also explained this was indeed a new era for the Dojo. However with the support of the members, this new era was welcomed instead of shooed. It didn't happen over night, but in showing respect for every member here, I gradually gained respect in return. In understanding both sides to things, we made the new wave work. It benefited the site in every way possible and that was the general consensus. The point here is with full understanding of each side and most of all support, we can only progress and move forward.

In the community: Sailors? warning has been removed. That's not to say it wasn't warning material, but I'm fully understanding that we are all human. He's been a contributor for a very long time and has had a spotless record. This is my thanks in return. With that said, I ask we all tone it down a knotch and think before we post.

In regards to Master Kyodai, perhaps I should explain his position in detail. He's always worked in the background and has helped in various ways. He has been with the community and has acted as a neutral standpoint, bickering with none and helping all. With that said, it only seemed logical that he would help this community prosper. We all make mistakes, we're all forgiven. I'm asking the same in return to Kyodai, as I'm sure this is not how he wanted anything to go down. His position does not make him an owner or admin, that is myself and that will not change. He, like Ryudo, manages the community. Ryudo's title is specific to his time here, it in no way means he has less say on the matter (as shown).

The TOS was written with all good intentions in mind, I'm sure it was because in talking with him all he wants is good for the community. It may have been unrealistic considering the community however. I understand you can not turn a loose place like the Dojo into a strict environment and I wouldn't want to. I would however want members to express care, caution and taste regarding what they write and where they write it. That is really all, just common sense. If this is used, there is no need for some big glaring TOS. With that said, I'm asking the community for two things: To use your better judgement in regards to tasteful posting and to allow Kyodai the chance to feel out the community further and to help manage it along with the rest of the staff.

A community that is on the same page along with a staff that follows, it has the potential to do wonderful things. Combine this with a series that needs all the help it can get and you have something very special. Let's keep it this way, let's make it better than ever.

[Bluecast]

I'm good with that. I think if we just all hold hands and sing for world peace..wait no sorry. However If MK can cleanly apologize and we can return the favor back to him and work together to make this place better.
I think we all care about the dojo and we sometimes express different and sometimes it can be viewed in vairious ways.

Lets buy the world a coke shake hands and orgy time! Can ya dig it!

[Segata Sanshiro Jr.]

Sorry if during the dialogue I said anything untoward. I just wanna be happy and give out hugs, I got nothing against anyone, even now.

[AnimeGamer183]

No offense Yama but as far as the forums go, I dont think you or kyodai really have a clue as to what is needed here, and I dont think you frequent the forums enough or even really contribute to them often enough to try to make your expectations fit, that goes for kyodai as well. The biggest thing that should be known, is that the Shenmue forums and the rest of the forums are 2 totally different worlds, and should be treated as such. I think if we tone it down in the Shenmue forums, it will be a bit more welcoming to new Shenmue fans. Also I would recomend making a welcome section within the Shenmue forums. Might even want to let new comers know that the "Other Forums" can be a bit more explicit, and try to give them a quick briefing in the TOS, try to find the best way point that will keep new comers feeling comfortable, and the established members comfortable as well. I wouldnt really change the rules much here from what they have been, but rather put more information about the forums and its members in the TOS so people know what they are getting into.

If everyone can do a part in keeping the serious topics on topic and the goof off ones goofy (the drama seems to start when the 2 get mixed), we will be alright. There is a compromise where everyone will be happy, we just cant think to one extreme or the other in order to get to it.

[Bluecast]

Hmm no sorry Yama is very involved even if not posting all that often. He has a pretty good idea and a very patient very undertsanding admin. IMO best owner dojo ever had. Not taking away from Andy or Ziming they did thier part also. Yama is always open to ideas and suggestions. Like he said most would either lose it or dump the place and Yama lives and learns.

[MiTT3NZ]

Mitt3ns, that was unnecessarry childish. Consider this the last "free" warning you get regarding swearing. We do have a rule that forbids swearing and we mean it. That YOU don't like this particular rule is unfortunate but it won't change anything.

...fuck you.

[MiTT3NZ]

I come from a place where everyone swears. There aren't many places on this planet where people don't swear. It's mainly stuck-up cunts who don't swear. Swearing itself isn't really vulgar in anyway, they're just words. I can think of plenty of combinations od none-swear words that would be a hell of a lot more offensive or disgusting than a swear word. Let's take this for example:

A) You're a fuckin twat y'know.

B) You're about as useful as a blood-soaked tampon during incestual sex betwen a 50 year-old and a 5 year-old.

See what I mean? Not only that, but I call people fuckers, twats, cunts, or anything all the time. Not to have a go or argue or anythin like that, but it's just what we do. It's what you call someone when you know you're comfortable with them, when you're mates with them, etc.

Not just that, but I don't think this "new management team" or whatever fully understands a few things. Let me point them out:

Shenmue has a cult following. Cult followings usually involve a crowd of people who are outside average demographs n shit. The kinda people who - instead of blindly wearing a man utd shirt because of their success - will instead support Manchester City, despite playing in the Second Division. These kinda people are blatantly into something different, and have passion about the things they're into. Try telling me that city are gonna change our colours from Sky Blue and White to Green and Black. I'd cut your fucking limbs off and use them to pound your head into the ground.

The Dojo has relatively few stuck-up cunts. The ones that are on here are mods. So let's say those mods get rid of or restrict everyone else... Well, what you'd be left with is pretty much a Facebook wall post conversation. Is that what you really want?

This is the internet. I'd find it difficult finding a message board that doesn't have swearing, one that doesn't have people ripping into eachother, or one that has the kinda witty banter that goes on here. And no, before anyone says "then why don't you go to one of those forums instead", it's not what you can do on a message board that attracts me, it's the people. We're a tight-knit community here, and most of us have been here for well over five years. We all know eachother. Maybe not on a truly personal level, but as far as having mates on the internet goes, a lot of us are the best of mates. I've compared this place to a pub before, in quite a good, well-thought out way, but just put it this way: Imagine some fucker coming over to a bunch of guys havin a laugh together and telling them that they can't swear because there are children present. I'd be the first to tell him to shove his pint up his pussy and remind him that it's a pub.

Lastly, Shenmue is dead. On average, how many times a decade do we hear of relevant or exciting news? Exactly. How many times a year do people play Shenmue for the first time? People aren't 'frightened' to sign up to a message board because they may or may not have read swear words or aggressive language. Hell, the majority of people who go on forums are lurkers anyway. We're like stars of a reality TV show ffs, people actually read what we post to be entertained. And yeah, that's the truth, coz I remember having a conversation with a lurker or two.

Either way, don't try to turn a pub into a family-frienly restaurant. It won't work. Oh, and btw, Shenmue games are rated for teens and over, the game itself has swearing in it. Do you honestly think that teenagers will be scarred for life by reading swear words? I actually remember posts in the New Rules topic by Kyodai. One was saying that swearing shouldn't be present on the Dojo because of children who may stumble across the website. Another said that as adults, we shouldn't swear because it's immature. So lemme ask then, who swears? Who's allowed to swear?

I think we all know where this is going, so I'll simplify it: Master Kyodai doesn't know shit.

[Riku Rose]

And no, before anyone says "then why don't you go to one of those forums instead", it's not what you can do on a message board that attracts me, it's the people. We're a tight-knit community here, and most of us have been here for well over five years. We all know eachother. Maybe not on a truly personal level, but as far as having mates on the internet goes, a lot of us are the best of mates. I've compared this place to a pub before, in quite a good, well-thought out way, but just put it this way: Imagine some fucker coming over to a bunch of guys havin a laugh together and telling them that they can't swear because there are children present. I'd be the first to tell him to shove his pint up his pussy and remind him that it's a pub.

I'd like to add something to this. MK made it clear he wasn't happy with this place yet when I used the why not leave and go somewhere you like excuse he shot it down. Yet he had no problem saying he want's to get rid of the people who like it here. So he want's to stay here despite not liking anyone here and expects the people happy to leave.

Yama is doing a great job with this site but there a few mods I'm not happy with. Some take their job to serious and other's have made it clear they don't like the majority here. I know for a fact many others feel the same. Yama did great with the re design and I'm sure he plans to carry on improving the site. With some of the people in charge it may be rocky and we may loose some members.

[Kenny]

Funny thing is I don't really have a grudge against Kyodai. Certainly I agree he (and some of the members) didn't handle the situation well. At all. Even after I voiced my opinion, a few pages down the line I was thinking "uuuh....so when are we gonna stop whining and get to the compromise part?".

It's probably cause I did business with him in the past and we chatted for a bit. He's more like the "down to business" type so the personal connection in that discussion wasn't there. And the dry sarcasm just made things worse. I rather look forward from here on out.

[Yama]

Actually, I do. Otherwise the place would have went to hell when it changed ownership, not gotten better. Every regular has been having a good time. Every forum has a TOS, it's how it is enforced that matters and exactly what it consists of. All the major players have shown their support; veterans, lurkers and major contributors alike.

Hmm no sorry Yama is very involved even if not posting all that often. He has a pretty good idea and a very patient very undertsanding admin. IMO best owner dojo ever had. Not taking away from Andy or Ziming they did thier part also. Yama is always open to ideas and suggestions. Like he said most would either lose it or dump the place and Yama lives and learns.

Appreciate it. I'm looking forward to everyone being on the same page, it's up to the rest of the staff and community. It really should be fine.

[MiTT3NZ]

I don't have any personal grudge against him, I don't even know the guy, but the "Down to Business" approach doesn't work when dealing with something recreational like a message board. It's not a workplace, it's a communal area of the internet to communicate with others. Such a place does not need someone directing things.

[Atlantean]

So I'm probably the worst kind of member to give any input here, since I didn't even notice the dojo had a new owner. Holy crap. I guess it came around a time when I was pretty much absent on the internet, and seeing it later, I just thought "Well they finally redesigned it, good!". Guess it wasn't just skin-deep.
Anyway, I'm not sure if the dojo is any better or worse. To me, it feels practically the same. Maybe a little less lively. So I'm not prepared to give out a genuine "great job!" or "FAIL, gtfo please." to anyone. But congratulations on taking up the challenge to take a hold on this place. I must say, sometimes, the Dojo felt a little like 4chan's /b/. And that's saying a lot about how crazy this place can get.

I have to chime in my disagreement on what AnimeGamer suggested: I don't think the forums' sections should be treated differently when it comes to behavior, with the exception of the Junk section. As you guys can tell, I pretty much don't participate on the Shenmue threads at all, even though I'm an avid reader; it's really interesting and fun, but I don't feel like I can contribute much. Then I see the other threads, which give us a nice look into the lives and personality of those dudes (and dudettes) that seem incredibly nice in the Shenmue threads, and I feel like the forums can not only be fun to read, but fun to interact with. And I'm sure that, while I can't claim it for myself, some of you have made good friends here.

That said, it's probably an immense cause of confusion to newcomers who see the members acting all cool and friendly on one side, and suddenly act substantially different on the other. I think it can spring out feelings of insecurity to those who'd like to get to know the others better.

I think that there should be some consistency throughout, but if that means getting a little more strict on the other forums, or a little more tolerating on the Shenmue ones, I don't know. I just think that, if you want to treat things differently, then the other forums should be a different site. Personally, I think that would damage the Dojo greatly. If you don't split and still intend to treat each side with significant differences, then let me tell you, dealing with a split-personality website isn't easy, and causes a lot of trouble and conflict.

Hope I at least made sense. I've had a hard time doing that recently.

[Gingefners, The]

Just so I'm clear on these rules... no more titties or booty in spoiler tags allowed? It seemed to have become an unwritten rule in recent months that such material was fine under that condition. Also in the past a thong was considered enough in the way of clothing to make a ladies hind parts acceptable. This still the case? Are topless men affected?

Not that I would post such smut here. No sir. It did make for an occasional nice treat among dull posts however.

[Atlantean]

I do think that what you're saying, Mitt3nz, makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure what the heck happened between this Master Kyodai and, uuhhh, everyone else?, to create this discussion, but I wonder what's so hard on dealing with this. I've expressed my disagreement on treating different sections of the forums differently, but when it comes to swearing in particular, why not just but an auto-censor in the Shenmue sections, and none in the other ones? We could even have some fun with it, so that if you wrote "You fucking cunt", it would show something like "You cuddly teddy-bear, you!".
Or ideally, though I don't know if this can be done, each member could choose to have the censor on or off. It could be on by default to "protect the most fragile minds", but you'd be free to turn it off once you registered. Would that make everyone happy?
That said, I do think that a full ban on swearing is nonsense too.

[Supa]

I've read through the three threads about the new rule. I agree swearing needs to be cut back upon, because this place can appear very, very nasty at times. Not very appealing to some...some people don't like swearing. If the members that don't swear can't make that compromise to tone it down, then they are just as bad as they think MK is for imposing the new rule.

I think most of the situation has been cleaned up, however, I feel people were jumping on Kyodai over the stupidest little things, like when he was saying in his apology and others were mincing his words because they were unhappy. That was dumb, I think.

However, Mittens, some of the comments that have come from you recently have been very unacceptable and immature. If we all want to get through this and make the Dojo fun for all, everyone is going to have to compromise a bit. Get used to it.