im pretty pissed.

[sushiglowfreek]

yeah god forbid something that doesnt appeal to the fscking boring masses doesnt even get any thought by the corporate world. its so stupid.

[Silas]

You're right, Shenmue has more in common with those old school Sierra adventure games than today's RPGs, but IMO Shenmue fits the role playing category better than most current RPGs. Somewhere along the way the definition of RPG got changed to mean turn based games with experience and hit points.

It's like the term R&B. R&B used to actually be about rhythm and blues, not Nelly and Beyonce ffs.

Spot! On!

(Bit of history, though, the term "Role Playing Game" originates with the non-computer games that started with Dungeons and Dragons, and levels and hit and experience points are inescapably linked to those games. Because of the history of it, I myself prefer to retain RPG for the term for those games which utilise those features.)

I'll tell you why those games sell and Shenmue doesn't, and I'm afraid it's a rather sad reflection on Shenmue as a whole: Shenmue is a technical tour-de-force with astonishing graphics, brilliant camera programming and the best "conversation" system ever devised; Shenmue is an artistic masterpiece, with real characters that you care about and a magnificent, epic storyline. But as a game, Shenmue simply isn't very challenging. And that's the thing. There's nothing I loved better than the concept of finding stuff out about my father's death by walking around, asking people and building up a picture of what really happened. But there's nothing challenging about it. QTEs are challenging - the first time. But if you fail you go straight back and do them again (much more often than not) and the keypresses are always exactly the same. There is nothing remotely challenging about Shenmue I until the third disk, when you get the challenge of doing a good job on the forklifts, and then you have the 70 man battle. But that's far too late for a game to be introducing its best bits.

I think the big problem with the Shenmue games is that they are structured like movies - all the excitement builds up slowly and is then unleashed in the final act - disk 3 in Shenmue I and climbing the Yellow Head in Shenmue II (Guilin is really just a coda). Games just don't work that way.

Well, this post was a little bit longer than I expected!

[code l name]

Great post as usual Silas, and you make a very valid point. In both games, it only really begins to shine (In terms of challenge, action and ultimately the story coming together) in the final disk and as you've said it's often too late for many gamers.

I mean those who've tried introducing the game to friends and others, probably have quoted the same advice from the typical complaint of the game being to slow and boring- "Just wait until Disk 3 that’s where things really begin to pick up, just you wait". I mean the slow nature (Which for a large parts I have no complaints about as most here) kind of exaggerate and heighten the latter parts when things begin to fire on all cylinders, however not the case for most. Certainly an area that needs to be looked at if there is a 3rd game- well one can suspect it's going to be intrigue, mystery and a heavy doze of action and adventure if they plan on cramming in all remaining 11 chapters...

[Spoonfan]

I think they really improved on that with Shenmue II. The game basically started with a QTE chase. Story-wise I suppose the game took a while to get going, but as far as gameplay goes, they threw you straight into it on disc 1.

[Silas]

You're not getting my meaning, really. After the cutscenes and the one arm wrestling challenge you can do (losing which, just leaves you a few dollars worse off) you get the QTE chase - very exciting. But if you fail to catch up with Wong eventually you'll have a situation where you fight Sam or Larry - lose that, you just do it again, and it's really not very hard.

Then you go to work as a crate carrier. I'm not on about the fact that it's boring, I'm concerned with the fact that it's the worst designed minigame of all time. The maximum you can earn is $60. If you miss up to about three keystrokes, you'll still get $60 and I can't even imagine earning less than $50. There's nothing to strive for.

Your first real challenge in the game is the Wude: step one, learn the Iron Palm. Interesting, but it's repetitive. To challenge the player, they should have had your ability decrease steadily after every successful hit, so that you had to get several good hits in a row to complete the move training.

Step two: run an errand (oh and break one brick).

Step three: sit and do nothing. (You think you're being challenged to press a button very quickly, but no.)

Step four: A multiple stand up fight of the kind that you've done a number of times before, followed by wall cleaning, which is about the most challenging part of the whole game so far.

PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG! I absolutely drink in every tiny little aspect of the atmosphere of Shenmue, I love the characters, I love the storyline. I am only talking about the lack of challenge in the game. It's not just a matter of adding more QTEs. If you couldn't get past the arm wrestling unless you won. If by not missing a single keystroke, you got $100 bonus when crate carrying. If at least one if not all the Wude learning sequences involved doing something difficult and rewarding, rather than repetitive and ultimately a bit tedious. Then you can ignore all the "hype", all the marketing and all the advertising in the world: Shenmue would be a world-beating game up there with GTA and FF.

[Atlantean]

most people love games where you can blow up shit or stuff like that. the reason final fantasy sells is because its not like real life!!! My theory is the shenmue is tooo human like. The majority of gamers like games that take them away from there eveyday life. Blowing up aliens just appeals more then finding a guy who killed your father and walking around with no leads. I love shenmue but i understand why people don't like them. Its not because they are morons. Its because when they play a game they wish to be a Footbal MVP or save the day by single handlely killing 500 aliens. Some people like action and they just find shenmue boring.

Too human like, you say? I believe that if you make it less human, you'll ruin it... O.o

[jdub]

only reason FF sells(exception of 7th one), is cause of its CG, if u noticed in thier TV Sport commercials, they never show gameplay, very tiny piece of it, a whole alot of CG and lots of Publicity. reality is, SHENMUE makes FF series look weak.

Man! that is so true

[jdub]

im losing confidence for shenmue 3, it just semm like it won't come out, sombody build me back up please!

[Peter]

Excellent point Silas. When this game was created, Suzuki had to wait for technology to catch up with his dream (the Dreamcast) so that he could make the game the way he wanted it. However what he wanted was not what the gaming world wanted, a playable movie. As groundbreaking in all the areas Shenmue was/is, how can you convince someone, after completing say halo, or final fantasy 10 to play a game where you say tp person after person

"excuse me..........................what/ hmmm you called......................how do i get to Wan Chai.............im sorry im not familar with this area, please ask a local....................."

The game is like an average movie, costing up to four times more money to create, than compared to your average blockbuster film anyway, but take away your opening and final dramatic scenes and what have you got?

In saying that, Shenmue did its damdest in the sequal, and i think just about pulled itself out of the bordem category, with the arm wrestling, illegal streetfighting, lucky hit stands and arcades.

Look at it this way, are football matches played at the same pace say as fifa or TIF?

[rome]

Those are great points, but they would fit perfectly in with a topic about the lack of challenges in the Shenmue series....i agree..Silas you make a great point and i agree,as well as peter c.......I think in Shenmue 3 they should make somehting challenging happen...like havting to fight alot of the ChiYouMen.....that would be cool.....so...new challenges in Shenmue 3..got it....someone go make that topic....

[Peter]

Go ahead rome lad. Your idea il post on it alright

[Silas]

The game is like an average movie, costing up to four times more money to create, than compared to your average blockbuster film anyway, but take away your opening and final dramatic scenes and what have you got?

That is the saddest fact about Shenmue - They spent nearly as much money as the biggest, most special effects laden blockbuster, but if you'd filmed it, it wouldn't have cost more than about $5m-$8m.

[Peter]

I think in Shenmue 3 they should make somehting challenging happen...like havting to fight alot of the ChiYouMen.....that would be cool........

Aha but then the problem arrises of avoiding repetitaveness, keeping to the original storyline,and keeping the game in a general RPG/F.R.E.E. genre instead of a beat-em up.

That is the saddest fact about Shenmue - They spent nearly as much money as the biggest, most special effects laden blockbuster, but if you'd filmed it, it wouldn't have cost more than about $5m-$8m

Dya think Shenmue made in profit, what it cost to make? 2002-2003 seen Sega make a profit for the first time in years

[Silas]

Er, no, there can be no doubt that they never recouped the money spent on the game in profits from the game.

Of course, when they spent $70m to make Shenmue and at least the bulk of Shenmue II a good amount of that money was actually in the form of research and development, and undoubtedly paid off in terms of particular programming and graphics techniques which they will have made use of in other games. So it wasn't a total write-off. However, the Dreamcast failed, their biggest budget game ever failed, and they have had some pretty tough times - however they seem to be surviving them so far, pace Sammy.

[Peter]

So never mind thinking about Shenmue 3, were still revovering from the hangover of the first two then, moneywise.