Working, Gambling & Saving

[Amir]

Playing through Shenmue II now, and since I've already played it a bunch of times I'm just saving and gambling to earn money. I suppose on first playthrough of Shenmue III I'll want to try everything, but do you think there's another way to encourage people to "work" in-game instead of just gambling to get easy money? I don't think limiting saving as in Shenmue I is an option as people expect to save everywhere in-game these days.

[Three Blades]

I'm thinking that the only way to really force people to do it would be if you have to because of the story, like the forklift and the books.
Unless it's really really fun... in another thread, somebody brought up those chinese carts that have a running man pulling it in front. Depending on the map design, that could be tons of fun, even if it's mostly a bunch of QTEs to avoid people. But they could even have a full blown mini-game where you actually control Ryo and the cart and you have to avoid pedestrians.
That would be tons of fun I think, especially if you can mess up on purpose and watch the customers get angry at Ryo like some Crazy Taxi customers

[Amir]

I'm thinking that the only way to really force people to do it would be if you have to because of the story, like the forklift and the books.
Unless it's really really fun... in another thread, somebody brought up those chinese carts that have a running man pulling it in front. Depending on the map design, that could be tons of fun, even if it's mostly a bunch of QTEs to avoid people. But they could even have a full blown mini-game where you actually control Ryo and the cart and you have to avoid pedestrians.
That would be tons of fun I think, especially if you can mess up on purpose and watch the customers get angry at Ryo like some Crazy Taxi customers

Crazy Rickshaw.

What's Mandarin for YEAHYEAHYEAHYEAHYEAH?

[johnvivant]

i think its best to have just 1 or 2 compulsory days of work and thereafter its up to player how he goes about earning money. some people loved the compulsory days of work in shenmue 1 yet many other people complained about it. having to commit to a daily job schedule is realistic and helped increase the immersion but then again its frustrates those players who feel trapped in carrying out a lesser liked activity.

maybe shenmue 2 had a better balance, although you do hear a lot of complaints from people about carrying the books!

[Amir]

i think its best to have just 1 or 2 compulsory days of work and thereafter its up to player how he goes about earning money. some people loved the compulsory days of work in shenmue 1 yet many other people complained about it. having to commit to a daily job schedule is realistic and helped increase the immersion but then again its frustrates those players who feel trapped in carrying out a lesser liked activity.

maybe shenmue 2 had a better balance, although you do hear a lot of complaints from people about carrying the books!

People complain about the book-carrying?! Philistines. Next you'll be telling me people didn't like catching leaves...

Seriously, though, that was one of my favourite parts of the game. But yeah, I think you're right about having just a couple of compulsory days of work. You only had to work 5 days as a forklift driver in Shenmue I, and even then you had a lot of QTEs/FREE Battles to break the workday up.

[killthesagabeforeitkillsu]

I don't see gambling being an option in the first stages of the game.

[Amir]

I don't see gambling being an option in the first stages of the game.

The $10.25 million stretch goal is for betting games in Bailu. Doubt it'll be reached, but Suzuki at least planned for it.

[shenmue852]

Playing through Shenmue II now, and since I've already played it a bunch of times I'm just saving and gambling to earn money. I suppose on first playthrough of Shenmue III I'll want to try everything, but do you think there's another way to encourage people to "work" in-game instead of just gambling to get easy money? I don't think limiting saving as in Shenmue I is an option as people expect to save everywhere in-game these days.

There's times when the game forces you to work, and I've never had a problem with that. As for encouraging players to work the optional jobs, most would if there was added interactivity with characters related to that, as well as obtainable items, things aside from in-game currency, that you wouldn't get without working.

[fittersau]

There's times when the game forces you to work, and I've never had a problem with that. As for encouraging players to work the optional jobs, most would if there was added interactivity with characters related to that, as well as obtainable items, things aside from in-game currency, that you wouldn't get without working.

The work needs to be fun as well. No point making in-game work tedious and boring just to earn in-game money if there's no fun factor. I think on the whole Shenmue was OK in this regard. Some times working or the risk of failure of a mini game is trivial because of modern save and load systems.

The save and load system at any point for The Witcher 3 makes most encounters trivial whether it be fighting a monster, making a dialogue choice or playing a game of Gwent. A simple reload will make good a bad decision or poor fight. I'm not sure whether Shenmue will enforce a tougher save/load system or not. The Souls series is notorious for it. I think in part the easy save/load system of The Witcher 3 made the game an fun experience so the players would not be frustrated at replaying whole parts of the game because of a bad choice or player error. Perhaps it's not a problem for The Withcer 3 because it has so much content anyway, even though a lot of it is variations on the same gameplay.

Whether Shenmue 3 has the breath and depth of gameplay remains to be seen, but it was a hallmark of the series. If I recall correctly, I used to save and reload on the Big Small games so I'd basically double my money on a 50/50 guess.

[ash55]

To prevent cheating, the only solution I can think of is akin to Pokemon's save system. There's just one save file, and the game requires you to save before and after certain things (like trading pokemon). In Shenmue, it could require that you auto-save before and after gambling so you can't just shut the console off. The game will know if you've not saved post-gambling, and you'll lose your bet.

Having only one save slot would suck though if you want to jump into Shenmue at various points in the adventure... Perhaps a solution to that (which Pokemon never had) is a purchaseable item at the shops that allows you to create a save point? Each "save point" would need to cost the same as the highest bets in the game though. Perhaps the item would be an "Ornate Bookmark" intended for your journal. Not only would this item make getting a job more important since you can't cheat for money, but it would be an extra useful thing to spend your money on.

I also think a good way to dissuade players from gambling to exploit the economy would be to just not have high stakes $500 bets (you could make the "Bookmarks" cost less then).

All this assumes that exploiting the game is such a huge problem in the first place that such drastic measures must be taken to prevent it. I do think players will typically exploit a game if they can and find the path of least resistance, even if it hurts their overall experience. So maybe...

Given Shenmue's emphasis on immersing you in Ryo's life, I think it suits the ethos of the game if you can't take back dumb decisions or mistakes. If you're unable to rewind the clock (just like in real life), you will approach every moment with more care. You aren't constantly reminding yourself "Hey, no worries, it's just a video game, I can just reload". Instead you're constantly reminding yourself of the opposite, your decisions have permanent consequences and time is constantly flowing.

[Aimless Gamer]

I wish it would auto save before gambling.

[shenmue852]

There's times when the game forces you to work, and I've never had a problem with that. As for encouraging players to work the optional jobs, most would if there was added interactivity with characters related to that, as well as obtainable items, things aside from in-game currency, that you wouldn't get without working.

The work needs to be fun as well. No point making in-game work tedious and boring just to earn in-game money if there's no fun factor. I think on the whole Shenmue was OK in this regard. Some times working or the risk of failure of a mini game is trivial because of modern save and load systems.

The save and load system at any point for The Witcher 3 makes most encounters trivial whether it be fighting a monster, making a dialogue choice or playing a game of Gwent. A simple reload will make good a bad decision or poor fight. I'm not sure whether Shenmue will enforce a tougher save/load system or not. The Souls series is notorious for it. I think in part the easy save/load system of The Witcher 3 made the game an fun experience so the players would not be frustrated at replaying whole parts of the game because of a bad choice or player error. Perhaps it's not a problem for The Withcer 3 because it has so much content anyway, even though a lot of it is variations on the same gameplay.

Whether Shenmue 3 has the breath and depth of gameplay remains to be seen, but it was a hallmark of the series. If I recall correctly, I used to save and reload on the Big Small games so I'd basically double my money on a 50/50 guess.

Eh, depends on the job. Forklift driving was genuinely fun for me, so I never had a problem with that. Moving books in the library was tedious, yes, but as a narrative element it brought that part of the story to life- it was supposed to be a little frustrating, but it wasn't for the whole game and Shenmue isn't trying to be a conventional game, and that part was still enjoyable in its own way.

But the box moving sucked, and since you don't get any added interactivity with Deilin from doing it any more than you have to, I didn't bother with it. I would have if there was more interaction with him from doing it, or if that particular minigame was more fun. I liked the other jobs just fine though.

[shenmue852]

To prevent cheating, the only solution I can think of is akin to Pokemon's save system. There's just one save file, and the game requires you to save before and after certain things (like trading pokemon). In Shenmue, it could require that you auto-save before and after gambling so you can't just shut the console off. The game will know if you've not saved post-gambling, and you'll lose your bet.

Having only one save slot would suck though if you want to jump into Shenmue at various points in the adventure... Perhaps a solution to that (which Pokemon never had) is a purchaseable item at the shops that allows you to create a save point? Each "save point" would need to cost the same as the highest bets in the game though. Perhaps the item would be an "Ornate Bookmark" intended for your journal. Not only would this item make getting a job more important since you can't cheat for money, but it would be an extra useful thing to spend your money on.

I also think a good way to dissuade players from gambling to exploit the economy would be to just not have high stakes $500 bets (you could make the "Bookmarks" cost less then).

All this assumes that exploiting the game is such a huge problem in the first place that such drastic measures must be taken to prevent it. I do think players will typically exploit a game if they can and find the path of least resistance, even if it hurts their overall experience. So maybe...

Given Shenmue's emphasis on immersing you in Ryo's life, I think it suits the ethos of the game if you can't take back dumb decisions or mistakes. If you're unable to rewind the clock (just like in real life), you will approach every moment with more care. You aren't constantly reminding yourself "Hey, no worries, it's just a video game, I can just reload". Instead you're constantly reminding yourself of the opposite, your decisions have permanent consequences and time is constantly flowing.

I don't think we need the equivalent of in game DRM over in game currency. The honor system works just fine if you want to play that way.