Open World Fatigue and Shenmue III

[ys]

While Shenmue's world might be smaller in area size compared to some current games it somehow "feels" bigger to me due to its deliberate design. The fact that you travel to several locations for example increases the epic, grand feeling. And the density of stores, people,... then helps to establish the feeling of a living world. So I'm glad that Yu is concentrating on this at the moment.

Many open world games don't really feel like such a living world though which kind of nullifies that intended big scope. Several times I felt as if I was just wandering around a very empty map with specific NPC's waiting for me at a specific time. As said above, like completing a checklist. I really felt this open world fatigue in Fallout 3. The world building was already a bit suspect at times and the map felt like a way for Bethesda to pad playing time. I am never able to really get immersed in those games due to the design.

[Sonoshee]

Welcome to the Dojo, Spaghetti!

Many open world games don't really feel like such a living world though which kind of nullifies that intended big scope. Several times I felt as if I was just wandering around a very empty map with specific NPC's waiting for me at a specific time. As said above, like completing a checklist. I really felt this open world fatigue in Fallout 3. The world building was already a bit suspect at times and the map felt like a way for Bethesda to pad playing time. I am never able to really get immersed in those games due to the design.

Emptiness and "padding out" is sadly very common in modern western RPG's. A perfect example of this is in the original Borderlands DLC "Secret Armoury of General Knoxx" where you have no fast travel system and are forced to travel 10-20 minutes by vehicle from one section to another. Even one of my favourite 360 titles, Mass Effect, has the same issue with pointless side quests.

Nothing has really been as meaningful in everything it did since Shenmue.

[Naomi Daniels]

Western rpgs are a great example of the power trip checklist gameplay I talked about in my article.

The best example I can think of are Bethesda rpgs.

They are purely crafted to maximize the player's experience of eventually becoming a God. It's impossible not to become a God. The games have no limitations or rules in place, and as such, nothing really matters. Takes guilds for instance. You can join every guild, but there's no reason to do so other than to gain a rare weapon or just to complete the quest. Which makes participating in them hollow. Joining guilds has no impact on the world, and the world has no impact on the guild. More than that, there's no reason not to participate in every guild. If the designer's had any sense, they would make it so you could only join one guild per playthrough. Instead, it's a free for all to do everything. You do everything, why? Because it's there. Not because it's engaging, or because it even builds upon the world. It's just filler.

The contradiction of Bethesda rpgs is that they advertise them as "do what you want" crusades, but nothing ever really changes within the world no matter what happens, which makes the game feel closed or constrained.

As it is, the game's world exists just to exist. It doesn't exist to be part of the actual game experience and how the player interacts with it in any memorable way.

Compare it to an Obsidian game and it's night and day.

[Spaghetti]

Bit late to reply to everybody, but yes, hello, I am indeed that Spaghetti from GAF. Thanks very much for the warm welcome.

I figured it was probably time I joined here instead of being the occasional lurker.

[Naomi Daniels]

Where should I make my blog? This is technically the first entry, and I wanted to give it a test run on TAY, but I'm thinking it limits the topics I can cover by being on TAY, so I'm open to suggestions.

[Kiske]

Fantastic article @NaomiDaniels!

You made me possibly even more eager about Shenmue 3 that I alrealdy was!
I'm definitely ready for a rerun of the original games.

[Monkei]

PSA: I helped proof read the article. Still agree with it pretty much from top to bottom though, and it's worth reading.

I'm sorry to point that out, but the article is riddled with typos. And while I like the point it's attempting to make, I don't think it's particularly well written to be honest. On the contrary.

I have edited the post and it's now typo free! Could you tell me exactly how it isn't well written? I could always use constructive criticism.

Hey! I didn't expect you to reply on here and having to stand up for my possibly somewhat harsh remarks. I'll try to be more fair this time and make some contructive suggestions. In general I didn't like the structuring of your sentences in a couple of places. Use of commas, wording, stuff like that. Mostly minor things, but I'm picky when reading. Please take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt though, I'm not a native speaker.

First off, you really seem to have fixed many of the typos, nice job. I'm sitting at work right now, reading through your article again. Still found some typo leftovers and other things that irritated me:

a previously 47 million budget for both games

This seemed kinda weird to me. Don't know.

that bogs down the games pace

the game's pace

I now recoil when I’m now forced to

'now' twice

An example for comma problems: For my taste there's a comma too much in here...

So while in Skyrim, you’re the leader of multiple guilds

...which could have been placed here, after 'scrub', instead.

every soldier in every city is going to treat you like a nobody scrub sarcastically asking about a sweet roll

Another example of a minor irritation would be stuff like

Nathan Drake has a kill count of a small country at this point.

I would have written "the kill count of a small country".. but I might become too nitpicky here.

Some more typos/errors/stuff I found questionable or didn't like:

Unfortunately, many player’s expectations is to kick ass first

players' and expectation or expectations are?

You could possibly see that lack of complete openness a deterrent from the open-world

'as a deterrent'?

that allows Shenmue and others games like it

other games

Shenmue also has a far larger focus on story than other games in the genre by far.

'far' twice

does his stuff, comes home by a set curfew, and repeat

Is 'repeat' supposed to be imperative form here? I guess so. Not sure about this one.

Ryo doesn’t would wake up and start hauling ass immediately after the opening cutscene.

misplaced 'would'

Shenmue’s world are affirmed more than anything else, by relatable human emotions

world is?

he’s still a good kid you could still trust

'still' twice

represents the open-world genre - and gaming’s - obsession with power

I'd write 'represents the open-world genre's - and gaming's - obession' instead

Shenmue III, as a sequel to Shenmue II has a lot of potential

Again, nitpickyness. But I would have put a comma after 'Shenmue II'.

while still allowing the player to feel like they’re actually in his shoes

Not sure about this one. 'players' instead of 'player' or 'he's' instead if 'they're'?

he wakes up every day near the crack of dawn to travel to the harbor and work that forklift, which you drive, and have a quota to meet from 9 to 5

'have a quota' seems odd to me. You have or Ryo has?

the games are deliberate in their attempt to replicating normal human life

'attempt to replicate' or 'attempt of replicating'?

Since as game player’s, we’re used to game structure

players

taking certain levels of power out of player’s hands

'the player's' or players'

A genre now famous for holding player’s hands

same as above

they can’t release a game without telling player’s what to do

players

In contrast with the Sega’s epic, if there’s a door in the Shenmue franchise, it’s likely you can go inside

In contrast with Sega's epic

Some of Shenmue’s critics use this as a talking point that it’s boring and not very fun to play.

I don't like "use this as a talking point that", but maybe that's just me. I think I'd write "use as a talking point".

it’s something that grows on you and appreciate the more spend time with it.

Seems weird to me.

you have to go to class, meet deadlines, and like Shenmue, have a specific limitation

like in Shenmue?

Also like Shenmue, it was rated very highly. It’s also clearly inspired by some of the more minute element of Shenmue.

Here I would restructure everything, to evade using "also" twice and just to formulate that whole "was rated very highly" thing differently.

There’s an equally a valid approach to smaller

equally valid?

more densely detail open worlds

densely detailed?

Shenmue III’s developers fully understand the limitations that they placed on previous game gave it its signature panache

previous games

We need more games like it. Sometimes, maybe bigger really doesn’t necessarily mean better.

I found this to be a weak conclusion or final statement. It's the final sentence, it needs to have more punch, or more cleverness. Somehow. Sorry. :p

As I said, I'm not a native speaker, so some of my corrections might be bullshit. Everything else I'd criticize would probably be a matter of personal taste in writing styles, but I think some sentences or even whole parts would have to be rewritten to a degree before your article could be published as an opinion piece on some bigger site.

Please note: Neither am I in any way trying to discourage you, nor do I totally dislike what you've written. You're making very good points, both about Shenmue and open-world games in general. I remember feeling that dissonance while playing GTA IV and GTA IV: The Lost and Damned and totally agree with your point about tiring "checklist gaming". All in all it's a good effort, it's a nice text, just with some hickups. Maybe you can build on it, iron some stuff out, add some polish, you know?

[Giorgio]

Where should I make my blog? This is technically the first entry, and I wanted to give it a test run on TAY, but I'm thinking it limits the topics I can cover by being on TAY, so I'm open to suggestions.

For a personal blog, I would say on Tumblr.

A certain audience of Shenmue fans is on there. My "Shenmue Legacy" blog has 270 followers as of now (probably not many, yet; but it's the most active Shenmue blog on Tumblr). If you open one there, I will definitely 'reblog' your Shenmue posts. Plus, sharing the posts on Shenmue Twitter accounts it will attract a lot more viewers.

[myshtuff]

As fun as fallout is the massive scale definitely gets to you. Especially with no vehicles. Mass Effect was pretty good, but once again there were many places that were just empty. Granted the setting is the barren planets of the universe but still. Shenmue is still the best when it comes to balance between scale and detail. You don't have to be massive to be open world. Just interactive and well thought out.

[Naomi Daniels]

PSA: I helped proof read the article. Still agree with it pretty much from top to bottom though, and it's worth reading.

I'm sorry to point that out, but the article is riddled with typos. And while I like the point it's attempting to make, I don't think it's particularly well written to be honest. On the contrary.

I have edited the post and it's now typo free! Could you tell me exactly how it isn't well written? I could always use constructive criticism.

Hey! I didn't expect you to reply on here and having to stand up for my possibly somewhat harsh remarks. I'll try to be more fair this time and make some contructive suggestions. In general I didn't like the structuring of your sentences in a couple of places. Use of commas, wording, stuff like that. Mostly minor things, but I'm picky when reading. Please take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt though, I'm not a native speaker.

First off, you really seem to have fixed many of the typos, nice job. I'm sitting at work right now, reading through your article again. Still found some typo leftovers and other things that irritated me:

a previously 47 million budget for both games

This seemed kinda weird to me. Don't know.

that bogs down the games pace

the game's pace

I now recoil when I’m now forced to

'now' twice

An example for comma problems: For my taste there's a comma too much in here...

So while in Skyrim, you’re the leader of multiple guilds

...which could have been placed here, after 'scrub', instead.

every soldier in every city is going to treat you like a nobody scrub sarcastically asking about a sweet roll

Another example of a minor irritation would be stuff like

Nathan Drake has a kill count of a small country at this point.

I would have written "the kill count of a small country".. but I might become too nitpicky here.

Some more typos/errors/stuff I found questionable or didn't like:

Unfortunately, many player’s expectations is to kick ass first

players' and expectation or expectations are?

You could possibly see that lack of complete openness a deterrent from the open-world

'as a deterrent'?

that allows Shenmue and others games like it

other games

Shenmue also has a far larger focus on story than other games in the genre by far.

'far' twice

does his stuff, comes home by a set curfew, and repeat

Is 'repeat' supposed to be imperative form here? I guess so. Not sure about this one.

Ryo doesn’t would wake up and start hauling ass immediately after the opening cutscene.

misplaced 'would'

Shenmue’s world are affirmed more than anything else, by relatable human emotions

world is?

he’s still a good kid you could still trust

'still' twice

represents the open-world genre - and gaming’s - obsession with power

I'd write 'represents the open-world genre's - and gaming's - obession' instead

Shenmue III, as a sequel to Shenmue II has a lot of potential

Again, nitpickyness. But I would have put a comma after 'Shenmue II'.

while still allowing the player to feel like they’re actually in his shoes

Not sure about this one. 'players' instead of 'player' or 'he's' instead if 'they're'?

he wakes up every day near the crack of dawn to travel to the harbor and work that forklift, which you drive, and have a quota to meet from 9 to 5

'have a quota' seems odd to me. You have or Ryo has?

the games are deliberate in their attempt to replicating normal human life

'attempt to replicate' or 'attempt of replicating'?

Since as game player’s, we’re used to game structure

players

taking certain levels of power out of player’s hands

'the player's' or players'

A genre now famous for holding player’s hands

same as above

they can’t release a game without telling player’s what to do

players

In contrast with the Sega’s epic, if there’s a door in the Shenmue franchise, it’s likely you can go inside

In contrast with Sega's epic

Some of Shenmue’s critics use this as a talking point that it’s boring and not very fun to play.

I don't like "use this as a talking point that", but maybe that's just me. I think I'd write "use as a talking point".

it’s something that grows on you and appreciate the more spend time with it.

Seems weird to me.

you have to go to class, meet deadlines, and like Shenmue, have a specific limitation

like in Shenmue?

Also like Shenmue, it was rated very highly. It’s also clearly inspired by some of the more minute element of Shenmue.

Here I would restructure everything, to evade using "also" twice and just to formulate that whole "was rated very highly" thing differently.

There’s an equally a valid approach to smaller

equally valid?

more densely detail open worlds

densely detailed?

Shenmue III’s developers fully understand the limitations that they placed on previous game gave it its signature panache

previous games

We need more games like it. Sometimes, maybe bigger really doesn’t necessarily mean better.

I found this to be a weak conclusion or final statement. It's the final sentence, it needs to have more punch, or more cleverness. Somehow. Sorry. :p

As I said, I'm not a native speaker, so some of my corrections might be bullshit. Everything else I'd criticize would probably be a matter of personal taste in writing styles, but I think some sentences or even whole parts would have to be rewritten to a degree before your article could be published as an opinion piece on some bigger site.

Please note: Neither am I in any way trying to discourage you, nor do I totally dislike what you've written. You're making very good points, both about Shenmue and open-world games in general. I remember feeling that dissonance while playing GTA IV and GTA IV: The Lost and Damned and totally agree with your point about tiring "checklist gaming". All in all it's a good effort, it's a nice text, just with some hickups. Maybe you can build on it, iron some stuff out, add some polish, you know?

Oh. most of my issues in the grammar department were in the possessive. I fucked up there big time. Thanks so much!

[Naomi Daniels]

This thing has been read 1400 times.

Where are they all coming from????

[Yokosuka]

This thing has been read 1400 times.

Where are they all coming from????

Likely Neogaf, Dojo and Twitter.

[Naomi Daniels]

Really hoping to hear feedback from non-Shenmue fans. That was my goal of writing the article: to give a reason to be excited for Shenmue III. As fans of Shenmue, we already are. But those people who don't know what it is, or what it means, or how it's different? Those are the people I wrote this article for.

[Monkei]

IGN occasionally has "community blogs" or whatever they call it, where articles like yours are featured on the main page.. I don't know how that works, but maybe you could look into it.

Edit: That would be for the videogame fans mostly of course.

[Naomi Daniels]

I made the corrections you pointed out Monkei. *bows*