Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

(Chapter 7 and beyond)

Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby O Rei do Frango Assado » Tue May 30, 2017 7:00 pm

ChiefNeo wrote:
O Rei do Frango Assado wrote: Yeah... That looks hideous, in my opinion. However, I'll hold my judgement till I see an actual reveal of the game, with its finalized look (and, with the game not being at E3, who knows when that'll be?). As it is, though, I really dislike this character model, both design-wise and graphics-wise. This had better be VERY work-in-progress. For the love of God, I don't want to see Shenmue's characters' aesthetic turning into something like a Blizzard game, or Street Fighter IV. That alone would be enough to make me regret spending almost 200€ funding this game.

I do have hope, however, that, considering the fact that Shenmue has always had realistic-looking characters (yes, somewhat stylized, but still quite realistic, especially for its time) and that the screenshots of Shenmue 3's backgrounds we've seen so far are actually pretty realistic, the game will indeed keep an overall realistic aesthetic (and have some decent graphics for its characters, for Christ's sake! I don't expect Uncharted 4-quality character models, but I don't want to see Shenmue's Guilin populated by plastic action figures of Saturday morning cartoons). It just wouldn't make sense to suddenly forgo its realistic look, especially in Shenmue, which is a continuous saga, so consistency is important.
So, like I said, I'm keeping cool and waiting until they actually show a proper Shenmue 3 trailer, or just anything substantial that looks like a finished game.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the possible cartoony (yes, that's what it is) aesthetic they might be going for the game's characters, though. Sure, I always say that Yu Suzuki knows what he's doing and that this is his baby, so he won't fuck it up with stupid, nonsensical stuff, but I used to say the same thing about Hideo Kojima and look at what he did with MGS V... Middle-age crisis can have quite an effect on some men...

As for the game skipping this E3, well, this makes it almost certain that the game will be delayed. Then again, I always found that December 2017 goal to be unrealistic.
It's a bit of a bummer that we won't see the game at E3, as obviously I'm curious to see just what Shenmue 3 will actually look like as game, since, for all intents and purposes, we still haven't really seen anything, but I can't say I mind a delay, though. In fact, from a more selfish point of view now, I even welcome it, as, by December 2017, I should still be on a several month long backpacking trip and I really wouldn't like knowing that Shenmue 3 was already at my home, waiting for me to play it, while I was travelling, and that I couldn't do it for who knows how many months more.

So, take your time, Suzuki-san! Just, at the end of it all, give us a great game that is true to Shenmue.


I think a big part of it is the lighting. Games these days insist on such strong and realistic lighting, which, under circumstances such as these, make the textures look plastic.

Excellent example is, once again, Wind Waker.

Compare the original:Image

vs the hd version with the new lighting. It's such a simple change but it alters everything. The palette, the feel, and the "texture" of the polygons. Image

If they changed the light that's hitting that model some of the sheen may come off and make it look much better.



Yeah, I guess so. I mean, this is just a polygon dent test. Besides, it would just be embarrassing to release a game with that kind of graphics, especially when the backgrounds are already looking quite good. Still, it hurts my eyes to look at it. The damn thing just looks ugly. But I guess that they had to show something just to keep their promise to give a update on KS every month...
My main concern lies with its cartoony aesthetic, really. But I have a feeling (hope) that this will just be a minor character where they simply went a bit wild and over the top with its design. That's why that, despite my concerns, I'm still fairly confident that the game will end up looking pretty good and, most importantly, looking like Shenmue (just with better graphics) and not like "Shenmue, Made by Blizzard" (nothing against Blizzard, but that kind of aesthetic just doesn't belong in Shenmue. It wasn't like that in Ryo's first chapters, so I don't see why it should start being so now).
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Peter » Tue May 30, 2017 7:11 pm

Hazuki00 wrote:
BlackHeaven wrote: Just a random thought: Maybe the model is an enemy with a backers face on it? :D

I'm not really sure but I think they didn't asked for backers photos yet...


Joe Kitchen already had his mock ups done last year in Japan.

Image
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby darksniper » Tue May 30, 2017 7:31 pm

Peter wrote:
darksniper wrote:
Peter wrote:
ChiefNeo wrote:
Peter wrote:
darksniper wrote:
We can only go by the material that has been given to us from YS Net. From the beginning the character models of Shenmue III have looked "off". The only reason why I can give you (Peter) the benefit of the doubt of calling the debate over this "bullshit" in your words is because you were fortunate enough to see some things thats the majority of us have not and that will naturally alter your opinion of what we're debating over. Still we're just going off of what we see right now.

I trust your opinion on what you have said about Shenmue III after what Yu Suzuki has shown you. If they were ready to unveil the game last year as originally intended, its clear that some serious work has been done that is consistent with what you've seen.

Either way, the only thing to do is wait and see and reserve further judgement until then.


Right, but it's not about giving ME the benefit of the doubt. This is what I don't understand at all. All of the poeple in here moaning and complaining, are not giving Yu Suzuki the benefit of the doubt!
And on what basis does this come from? Have you seen the tests of the original Shenmue and compared them to the finished product? No. You are comparing a finished product to one that clearly has marked on the tin, "work in progress". Surely you get that now? All the negativity surrounding this update is essentially unwarranted because it's test material, and far away from the look of the finished product. We are not supposed to see this stuff, and wouldn't if it was a regular game being developed. As someone said before I seen whilst reading, YSNET cannot win here. If they show nothing, they get slated. They show test materials they get slated. How about giving them a break and some praise for the work they are doing instead of going off on one is my point.

Everyone has their own opinions, I just use the basis of the release Shenmue games to base my opinion in a more positive light, because being negative about this will get people nowhere. If anything, based on experience, you will just have egg on your face when the game does turn out to be good, and a far cry from these tech videos we currently get.



And on what basis does this come from? Have you seen the tests of the original Shenmue and compared them to the finished product? No. You are comparing a finished product to one that clearly has marked on the tin, "work in progress".


If we're talking about the original Shenmue, it looked damn near like a PS2 game on the Saturn and that was back in 1996. I'm not sure if that's a relevant point towards the discussion at hand since we didn't even know of it's existence until later. Had Saturn Shenmue been revealed during that time period, it would have been the MGS for that generation. I'll even go as far as saying that it would have saved the Saturn. Shenmue Saturn is one of the most technically impressive games I've ever seen. I'd even argue that Saturn's Ryo looks more like himself than the one in III. But that's neither here nor there.

I hope you're not insinuating that I'm hoping that Shenmue III flops, that is completely further from the truth. All of the criticism everyone has on the game is coming from a place of passion, not ill intent. Ultimately all of us are aware of the intense scrutiny that Shenmue has undertaken over the years and we want this game to showcase why Yu Suzuki is a pioneer of his craft.

I think we're all subconsciously aware that there are journalists that are ready and waiting to shit on this game at the first chance they get, and us as fans don't want YS and the team to have any reason to do so. At it's root I still believe that it's unsettling that Sega has not given the attention to Shenmue III that it needs, and I hope this gets addressed soon. The long term goal is to get to Shenmue IV or else we all will be back at the same place we started. Even if some of us have polarizing opinions of how the game should look, we all want Shenmue III to be great.

When you said that we will be blown away by what you were able to see, I 100% believe you and Yu. We've waited 16 years for that moment. So if I get an egg on my face for Shenmue III, so be it. I hope it's scrambled with some ketchup.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Rikitatsu » Tue May 30, 2017 7:45 pm

People who aren't satisfied with the model, can you elaborate in detail why? Most of the posts I've read were "It doesn't feel like Shenmue" or "It's too cartoony"... I'm trying to understand why people would think so, and the only thing I can see is the skin shader being a little plasticky... That's pretty much it. And that is something that can easily be improved.

The face, proportions, and clothing are fine.The overall design is 100% the Shenmue I know and love. They translated the design from concept art to 3D model incredibly well. He is supposed to be this weird, overly muscular character with a creepy smile, I can't imagine him looking better than he already does in 3D. This bodes well for the rest of the characters, I say.

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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Peter » Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 pm

darksniper wrote:I hope you're not insinuating that I'm hoping that Shenmue III flops, that is completely further from the truth.



I am not disregarding the rest of your post, in case you think that. It was a good post and explained well.


But THIS comment I've quoted needs to be addressed. I've seen it so many times in here. I didn't once even think whilst typing, hint, or allude to you wanting Shenmue 3 to fail. That's been a major problem in here. People seem to read what on the screen, and in their minds, read something totally different from what the original poster has typed. Is this a generation thing?

You went on to justify why you don't want Shenmue 3 to fail when no one asked, said, accused, mentioned or even hinted at that. As ShenSun said, we are all on the same side, so why are you guys not asking each other questions. Learning why their opinions are what they are? Not giving an opinion, and having someone else argue that opinion... With an opinion.

Rikitatsu did it on the post above me. When he comments on an answer, read it for what it is. Don't jump in with a, "yea, but...". That's the worst thing you can do. Read, think, then post. The problem is people are just blurting out a predetermined answer and not actually listening/reading to what people are actually saying.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Bluecast » Tue May 30, 2017 8:01 pm

Tell me if I am wrong but I am looking at Shenmue II models. It seems most the faces are exaggerated in some way with featured NPCs & villians. Now Aside from Don Niu most don't have an exaggerated body build. There is a couple muscle men early I think. I also wonder if they could not do as many model types as they wanted due to Dreamcast limitations. Shenmue II is a lot for DC to handle. Even Ryo SIII looks different than his DC model. It just seems to me it's just the art translating to modern hardware and dev tools. I am sure it's been stated over and over. I maybe beating a dead horse saying that. That's how I see it. It doesn't bother me at all TBH.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby darksniper » Tue May 30, 2017 8:02 pm

Peter wrote:
darksniper wrote:I hope you're not insinuating that I'm hoping that Shenmue III flops, that is completely further from the truth.



I am not disregarding the rest of your post, in case you think that. It was a good post and explained well.


But THIS comment I've quoted needs to be addressed. I've seen it so many times in here. I didn't once even think whilst typing, hint, or allude to you wanting Shenmue 3 to fail. That's been a major problem in here. People seem to read what on the screen, and in their minds, read something totally different from what the original poster has typed. Is this a generation thing?

You went on to justify why you don't want Shenmue 3 to fail when no one asked, said, accused, mentioned or even hinted at that. As ShenSun said, we are all on the same side, so why are you guys not asking each other questions. Learning why their opinions are what they are? Not giving an opinion, and having someone else argue that opinion... With an opinion.

Rikitatsu did it on the post above me. When he comments on an answer, read it for what it is. Don't jump in with a, "yea, but...". That's the worst thing you can do. Read, think, then post. The problem is people are just blurting out a predetermined answer and not actually listening/reading to what people are actually saying.



Everyone has their own opinions, I just use the basis of the release Shenmue games to base my opinion in a more positive light, because being negative about this will get people nowhere. If anything, based on experience, you will just have egg on your face when the game does turn out to be good, and a far cry from these tech videos we currently get.


I just misinterpreted what you said the wrong way. Just an result of communicating through internet message board and not verbally discussing the matter. The message got lost in translation. One of those instances where the conversation would flow smoother in a verbal context. To be clear, I'm not "arguing" with anyone. This is a rational debate over the current state of Shenmue III.

My opinion still stands as far as what I think so far of the game graphically and where I feel it should go. The environments look astounding and the character models are "meh". However Yu Suzuki has a great track record and there's a lot left to be seen. Given the fact they nearly had an E3 trailer ready a year ago, I'm fully cognizant of the fact that we're only being fed breadcrumbs compared to whatever the current state of the game is at this point.

Right now we're just in the middle of a kneejerk reaction to a Kickstarter Update. The real eye test will be when we see other key characters such as Ren, Lan Di, Joy, Niao Sun etc.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby ChiefNeo » Tue May 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Peter wrote:
darksniper wrote:I hope you're not insinuating that I'm hoping that Shenmue III flops, that is completely further from the truth.



I am not disregarding the rest of your post, in case you think that. It was a good post and explained well.


But THIS comment I've quoted needs to be addressed. I've seen it so many times in here. I didn't once even think whilst typing, hint, or allude to you wanting Shenmue 3 to fail. That's been a major problem in here. People seem to read what on the screen, and in their minds, read something totally different from what the original poster has typed. Is this a generation thing?

You went on to justify why you don't want Shenmue 3 to fail when no one asked, said, accused, mentioned or even hinted at that. As ShenSun said, we are all on the same side, so why are you guys not asking each other questions. Learning why their opinions are what they are? Not giving an opinion, and having someone else argue that opinion... With an opinion.

Rikitatsu did it on the post above me. When he comments on an answer, read it for what it is. Don't jump in with a, "yea, but...". That's the worst thing you can do. Read, think, then post. The problem is people are just blurting out a predetermined answer and not actually listening/reading to what people are actually saying.


I'd say some people have. Some even showed yakuza as an example. But you called that bullshit posting. I'm not making a smart ass comment with that.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Peter » Tue May 30, 2017 8:14 pm

ChiefNeo wrote:
Peter wrote:
darksniper wrote:I hope you're not insinuating that I'm hoping that Shenmue III flops, that is completely further from the truth.



I am not disregarding the rest of your post, in case you think that. It was a good post and explained well.


But THIS comment I've quoted needs to be addressed. I've seen it so many times in here. I didn't once even think whilst typing, hint, or allude to you wanting Shenmue 3 to fail. That's been a major problem in here. People seem to read what on the screen, and in their minds, read something totally different from what the original poster has typed. Is this a generation thing?

You went on to justify why you don't want Shenmue 3 to fail when no one asked, said, accused, mentioned or even hinted at that. As ShenSun said, we are all on the same side, so why are you guys not asking each other questions. Learning why their opinions are what they are? Not giving an opinion, and having someone else argue that opinion... With an opinion.

Rikitatsu did it on the post above me. When he comments on an answer, read it for what it is. Don't jump in with a, "yea, but...". That's the worst thing you can do. Read, think, then post. The problem is people are just blurting out a predetermined answer and not actually listening/reading to what people are actually saying.


I'd say some people have. Some even showed yakuza as an example. But you called that bullshit posting. I'm not making a smart ass comment with that.


You just made my point.

Did I specifically say your posts were bullshit? That any of the Yakuza posts specifically were bullshit? Nope.

There are 233 posts in this topic, so if you are asking the question if I was referring to your posts as bullshit, then the answer is no. I am referring to various posts scattered throughout these 16 pages that have been made with over emotion due to the video/no E3 statement, and not reading what the person they are speaking to, has typed.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby ShenmueLegacy » Tue May 30, 2017 8:20 pm

Okay everyone take a deep breath...

These character models are still early in development. I'm sure in due time they will be refined to look like the CG models we've seen in the original Shenmues.

Breathe...
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Himuro » Tue May 30, 2017 8:23 pm

So then your rationale as a mod is to make the situation worse by calling posts in an already tense thread bullshit? Under your own rules you should get that 30 day ban. You have made the situation worse by threatening bans without justification when you're just as emotional as the people you threaten. If you're going to make threats and ultimatums state the base line. If you're going to moderate then don't call posts bullshit without stating what you find to be bullshit. You talk about how people aren't comprehending people's posts, but you are doing an awful job explaining your posts, making them easy to be misinterpreted. As a staff member you can and should do better.

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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby killthesagabeforeitkillsu » Tue May 30, 2017 8:26 pm

Rikitatsu wrote: People who aren't satisfied with the model, can you elaborate in detail why? Most of the posts I've read were "It doesn't feel like Shenmue" or "It's too cartoony"... I'm trying to understand why people would think so, and the only thing I can see is the skin shader being a little plasticky... That's pretty much it. And that is something that can easily be improved.

The face, proportions, and clothing are fine.The overall design is 100% the Shenmue I know and love. They translated the design from concept art to 3D model incredibly well. He is supposed to be this weird, overly muscular character with a creepy smile, I can't imagine him looking better than he already does in 3D. This bodes well for the rest of the characters, I say.


Image
Image

Proportions are far from fine in my opinion. I feel like in the past the 3D modelers tried to ground the concept art (the Joy example was good), but now they make it look even more outlandish hence it doesn't mesh well with the environment.

Image

Regarding wind waker, they had a new vision and went for it. If YSnet decides they can't make high quality 3D models so they are going to make everything cel shaded... I can cope with it.
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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Peter » Tue May 30, 2017 8:27 pm

Himuro wrote: So then your rationale as a mod is to make the situation worse by calling posts in an already tense thread bullshit? Under your own rules you should get that 30 day ban. You have made the situation worse by threatening bans without justification when you're just as emotional as the people you threaten. If you're going to make threats and ultimatums state the base line. If you're going to moderate then don't call posts bullshit without stating what you find to be bullshit. You talk about how people aren't comprehending people's posts, but you are doing an awful job explaining your posts, making them easy to be misinterpreted. As a staff member you can and should do better.



Sorry but who in the blue hell are you to question how anyone moderates these boards?? How many times have you came back apologising after your multiple outbursts?? Who threatened to go to the press to spread the word about how awful, and in dire straits the game was? Who asked ME to ban YOU for your own good? Who even asks that! Who created alternate accounts?? Who verbally abused people on these forums? You were lucky to still be on these boards at all. But after everything, and the by balls you have been given you are gonna try and stir this shit beyond what it already is? Ok then. Honestly you have exhausted every life you had around here. As already established on multiple occasions, you are a very toxic person, and that's not happening here anymore.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the interests of transparency here, this was less than 2 weeks ago:

Peter wrote: Himuro, please.... please don't take this the wrong way, but remember PSX just 6 months ago. You, among others, were a lot more venomous and toxic after the no show at that event. A lot of which, I took the brunt of. That was hard to take. You also were making threats, to go to the press etc. Again, don't take that the wrong way by today's context, but that's the facts. By all means, look forward to E3, and get yourself uber hyped if you want! Go nuts, but I'm asking you now, keep an open mind and as Jibby said, there could be absolutely NOTHING Shenmue related to come out of the Sony Conference, and the whole of E3. You are really building yourself up here, where everyone else is excited, but also voicing caution. Learn from the past. If there is a Shenmue no show, keep sensible and don't get negatively emotional again. That goes for everyone.

After PSX, lessons were learned, and anyone spouting garbage about going to the press, making claims of stolen money etc we will have a strict zero policy this time round. Temp bans will be issued without reasoning first if we feel it's beyond trying. Himuro, you are an example of that, where at the time you fly off the handle and throw the toys out of the pram, but then after a week or two, you apologise and things calm down once clarity sets in.

So this time, in the event that E3 is another PSX washout, by all means voice an opinion. But do it constructively and respectfully. Remember Yu and his staff are working 24 hours a day, sleeping at the office to get us out a game that's worthy of the Shenmue brand, on a shoestring budget. If they feel that E3 isn't the right time, respect that, and remember your 4 wude.


Himuro wrote: Also Peter, I have changed since then. During that time, I had a lot going on in my life and was actually kind of hoping to see Shenmue III. I was emotional and high strung. The one thing I had to look forward to was Shenmue III at PSX. When it wasn't there, I just kind of lost it. 2016 was a bad year for me and I took it out on a lot of things. I've since worked on my life and things are going pretty great. So if Shenmue III isn't at E3 I wouldn't expect a PSX repeat from me. I doubt it'll happen but if it does, please ban me for two weeks for my own sake.



Now, then. Back on topic please ladies and gents. The drama is over.

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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Bluecast » Tue May 30, 2017 8:35 pm

Peter wrote:
Himuro wrote: So then your rationale as a mod is to make the situation worse by calling posts in an already tense thread bullshit? Under your own rules you should get that 30 day ban. You have made the situation worse by threatening bans without justification when you're just as emotional as the people you threaten. If you're going to make threats and ultimatums state the base line. If you're going to moderate then don't call posts bullshit without stating what you find to be bullshit. You talk about how people aren't comprehending people's posts, but you are doing an awful job explaining your posts, making them easy to be misinterpreted. As a staff member you can and should do better.



Sorry but who in the blue hell are you to question how anyone moderates these boards?? How many times have you came back apologising after your multiple outbursts?? Who threatened to go to the press to spread the word about how awful, and in dire straits the game was? Who asked ME to ban YOU for your own good? Who even asks that! Who created alternate accounts?? Who verbally abused people on these forums? You were lucky to still be on these boards at all. But after everything, and the by balls you have been given you are gonna try and stir this shit beyond what it already is? Ok then. Honestly you have exhausted every life you had around here. As already established on multiple occasions, you are a very toxic person, and that's not happening here anymore.

After coming back it feels odd to see this kind of comment not directed at me lol. :lol: Sorry for being off topic. All I will say about it.

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Re: Shenmue III Update #67: Developer Room Update 3

Postby Rikitatsu » Tue May 30, 2017 8:43 pm

killthesagabeforeitkillsu wrote:
Rikitatsu wrote: People who aren't satisfied with the model, can you elaborate in detail why? Most of the posts I've read were "It doesn't feel like Shenmue" or "It's too cartoony"... I'm trying to understand why people would think so, and the only thing I can see is the skin shader being a little plasticky... That's pretty much it. And that is something that can easily be improved.

The face, proportions, and clothing are fine.The overall design is 100% the Shenmue I know and love. They translated the design from concept art to 3D model incredibly well. He is supposed to be this weird, overly muscular character with a creepy smile, I can't imagine him looking better than he already does in 3D. This bodes well for the rest of the characters, I say.


Image
Image

Proportions are far from fine in my opinion. I feel like in the past the 3D modelers tried to ground the concept art (the Joy example was good), but now they make it look even more outlandish hence it doesn't mesh well with the environment.

Image

It's just the pose that's making it look awkward (They played some stock animations to try and find any issues with the model) I don't see anything wrong with the proportions themselves, I assume the red line implies you think his arm is relatively short compared to his body? It doesn't look that short to me, especially when you look at it from another angle.

Image

Also, that picture of him inserted in a S3 environment is photoshopped, so clearly he won't fit in there... I'm sure you know this. The lighting on him will change completely if he was actually placed in that environment properly in-engine.

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