Anyone worried that Yu might listen to the fans too much?

[Phong]

My impression of the Shenmue fan base is a group of people who have waited so long for something that they will literally accept anything. He could abandon the whole kickstarter and use the money to fund an amateur play with elementary school props and you'd still have a bunch of fans curious saying, "wait and see, it might be good."

I'm pretty sure Yu Suzuki knows that and it's one of the reasons why he was attracted to kickstarter, so that it might give him the freedom to experiment, and he has always been an experimental developer. He worked in Sega's R&D, remember, researching new technologies. He'd always try to be in the office when his boss wasn't around so that he could work freely.

So I don't think you have to worry about that. He wants us to feel involved, I think, but much more he wants the freedom that we can offer.

That's what makes it so weird when so many journalists are insisting he has to answer to Sony or some other mysterious source of funding and that he doesn't have real creative freedom. He raised over 6 million from fans in one month. He has creative freedom.

[shenmue852]

Yes I'm very much worried about that- fanboys demand fanservice like a screaming toddler that can't envision anything beyond its own petulant urges.

The whole point of the rural setting is to highlight the contrast between the setting of the adventure in full swing, and the urban settings of the opening chapters, to convey a strong sense of character in the settings, which is partly achieved through contrast.

It sounds like they are a little desperate to do throwbacks to the first few games that are unnecessary, but I trust that they'll keep these diversions minimal instead of repeating themselves and not embracing the diversity of setting that originally made Shenmue so unique.

I'm 90% sure that if Shenmue III had been greenlighted after Shenmue II, they wouldn't have put capsule machines in China's villages.

[ShinChuck]

I'm 90% sure that if Shenmue III had been greenlighted after Shenmue II, they wouldn't have put capsule machines in China's villages.

I'm actually gonna disagree with ya there! I think capsule toys are just too much a part of Shenmue for them to toss them out for III, heheh. But I really don't know.

This does go back to the idea that 2000's vision of III won't be quite the same as 2015's or 2017's, so maybe you're right! But whatever Yu's final vision is, I'm pretty certain it will be fantastic!

[shenmue852]

Big part of Shenmue, but players already collected so damn many of them in Shenmue I and II that it's just diminishing returns in terms of the developers' effort and the players' time and interest. I collected almost every capsule back when I played Shenmue II, and while I wasn't exactly sick of buying them, they had almost lost all appeal by the end of the 2nd game. I was 14 when Shenmue II came out, and when I started playing II, I was really hyped to continue collecting capsules which I'd been doing in I. But at the end of Shenmue II, I honestly had no desire to see any capsule toys, I just wanted to get to Bailu village and learn of Iwao's past. The last thing I wanted at that point was a capsule machine with new toys.

[belinho]

I don´t think we will ever get a definitive answer to how Yu would make a Shenmue III right after SII, and altough one of the core aspects of the games is the setting and realism, they are video-games still, first of a kind in the open-world sense. That meant they needed to include stuff to make the world more familiar and richer (vending machines, capsules, arcades...) but Yu also went the other way by including the Saturn, the Shenhua products... I think it all comes down to balance. So the capsules being part of Shenmue III it's just that, something that you might engage if you want, and also makes the link with the previous games. gives it that little extra familiarity.

About the VF debacle, i understand the side that says it shouldn't belong in that world. For ME it really is a non-issue (well, if it ends up in the game, we will have a fighting game inside a fighting-based game, so...). But one thing that makes me ok with it is that if you don't take the dates so literally, what do you have? A game set in the late 80's (ages ago) with an arcade game from the early 90's (ages ago). If S3 was made when it was supposed to (early 00's) maybe then i would have an issue, not in 2017. I understand this is a personal opinion, but it really won't bother me. And it is a Suzuki game.

What i think i won't really like is that suggestion Yu made about a forklift game if he decides to do it. I much rather have a real game, be it VF or something else.


But the one thing i'll be vehement about is the fan input. I don't want that in any way. The one thing i'm gonna do in every poll they make is to write down "I don't want polls. I just want a YU SUZUKI game, not a "yu suzuki and fans" game.

off-topic: Hi guys, first post here. Nice to be part of the community

[shenmue852]

To me it just doesn't make sense that arcades would suddenly have Virtua Fighter immediately after they've had Outrun and Space Harrier. If they wanted to play fast and loose with the authenticity of what machines you'd find in an arcade, not only do i think there should be a smaller range of time than a decade, but also that if that's what they wanted they would have done it in the beginning but that's not what they made, so to mess with it now would be jarring. I'd feel the exact same way if someone was listening to a 90s sounding 90s song in an 80s movie, or listening to U2 in 1975. It simply doesn't gel with the era that's so painstakingly constructed otherwise.

I might seem comically opposed to VF because I argued with that troll in the other thread, but the truth is I like VF, I want them to make a VF6, and I think the inclusion of VF2 instead of a newer VF in Yakuza 5 was kind of odd, but still cool and true to the setting. It just doesn't fit in Shenmue though.

To compare it to having Shenhua appear on drink cans, that's really kind of a wink to the players from the developers, on a drink can and a chocolate bar, but these weren't fundamentally ruining the experience.

The arcades are a bigger part of the open world than chocolate bars. The arcade's visible, the machine's visible- the thing about Shenmue I and Shenmue II is by and large you could walk around the entire Yokosuka, Wan Chai and Kowloon, and nothing looked out of place for an 80s setting. Nothing.

Part of the point of the game is to create a sort of emotional/nostalgic connection to the past. I've noticed, Shenmue is kind of a melancholy game. Friends leaving town. Leaving home. The shift from the idyllic and the safe to the adventure and danger and mytery- you really feel that dynamic in Shenmue.

See the game is about the past on multiple levels. It's about the ancient prophecies, about Iwao's past and Shenhua's parents' past. But an additional layer of this aspect of Shenmue's epicness is that it's set in the 80s, but more importatly it successfully feels like it's set in the 80's on a deeper level than a synthpop soundtrack and cheesy fashion- it's an incredibly detailed time capsule.

So really, it speaks to the success and depth of Shenmue's world building, that Virtua Fighter would stick out like the sorest of sore thumbs and just ruin the atmosphere- maybe only in the arcade, but part of Shenmue's appeal is that the whole game world feels alive, and I really think it's the rest of the game's world building that helps lend the story its emotional weight.

[belinho]

If they wanted to play fast and loose with the authenticity of what machines you'd find in an arcade, not only do i think there should be a smaller range of time than a decade, but also that if that's what they wanted they would have done it in the beginning but that's not what they made, so to mess with it now would be jarring.

I'm sorry, i might be misinterpreting your point. Are you saying if they wanted, they would incorporate VF (i say VF because it's the most discussed game)? I'm a layman in everything programming and game development (i'm talking out of my ass so take everything i say with a pinch of salt), but i don't think they could have a VF inside Shenmue on the Dreamcast. But there's something else...

Part of the point of the game is to create a sort of emotional/nostalgic connection to the past.

There's also context. In this case, you're talking about a game releasing in 2018(?), taking place in 1988(?) that MIGHT include an arcade game from 1993. If Shenmue 3 was released in 2003 it would be a different case, VF wouldn't have that nostalgia factor associated, which i think it does now.

The arcades are a bigger part of the open world than chocolate bars. The arcade's visible, the machine's visible.

Are VF arcades different than the regular arcades?(honest question)
I think they are standard looking, i couldn't differentiate them without looking up close, so i don't understand how a VF arcade would stand out that much

To compare it to having Shenhua appear on drink cans, that's really kind of a wink to the players from the developers, on a drink can and a chocolate bar, but these weren't fundamentally ruining the experience.

Well, the "problem" lays there. For you, the Shenhua and VF posters in S1 don't break immersion, but VF arcade does. To other people, those same posters can be off putting... I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, so there's no way to ever please everybody

... it's an incredibly detailed time capsule.

... that features a Sega Saturn (and maybe other stuff that i'm missing). A lot of movies have tried to go for the most realistic approach in this regard, but there's always that little something that does'nt quite belong there.

My final thoughts on this whole VF affair is that's really kind of a wink to the creators legacy, and to the origin of Shenmue itself, so i'm pretty fine with it. (hell, we don't even know if it will really be included)

[shenmue852]

yes the 80s arcade is designed different from a modern arcade. you can see a modern arcade in Yakuza.

You can compare the Dobuita Arcade with the arcade in Yakuza 5. But here's another real life comparison just to illustrate my point about VF not fitting-

80s arcades-






90s arcade where it wouldn't be weird to see VF cabinets-

80s arcades were kind of a new thing. Associated with gangsters but that continued into the 90s. The point is the arcades in Shenmue I and II are pretty distinctively designed like old arcades, the one in Wan Chai is slightly more commerical. The thing about old arcades is the cabinets tended to be more custom built because games couldn't rely entirely on their graphics, but also used and emphasized decorative gimmicks/peripherals more, for the main attraction games. They did have regular cabinets, but mainly for old games. Basically VF cabinets running a 3D game would look odd in an 80s arcade. Culture is a huge part of Shenmue, and part of that culture is the history of arcades which were a social and cultural phenomenon as much as just about the game.

Re: The sega saturn, this isn't the first time I've heard it held up as some trump card that Shenmue is period inaccurate, and that's insulting because it was deliberately put in there because almost the entirety of the game's chapters had been in beta development on the Saturn, so it was a singular and conscious deliberate exception to the otherwise macro attention to detail that went into creating a period accurate environment. And even that Saturn, in the game is effectively a cosmetic stand in for a Master System.

I don't see how 2003 is reelvant to this objectively. I don't want to see a 60s movie that has 70s culture in it. '67 is very far back from '73. I'm not sure if you're aware of the extent to which they researched and found the same Royal Mail post box designs from 1987 Hong Kong and used them in the game, and the same goes for the designs of vehicles and street signs. It's not a carbon copy but it creates a very recognizable set of environments that carry the era as well as the geographical locations themselves.

So with this much fastidiousness to period accuracy, from things that you may not even have realized they went to the trouble to do (recreating the exact weather from the calendar year Shenmue was set in) it would be damn shameful to piss all over it with something from a different era.

There's also context. In this case, you're talking about a game releasing in 2018(?), taking place in 1988(?) that MIGHT include an arcade game from 1993. If Shenmue 3 was released in 2003 it would be a different case, VF wouldn't have that nostalgia factor associated, which i think it does now.

You're misinterpreting my point. It's not that VF isn't nostalgic. It's about recreating an era in time, and through that as well as multiple elements in the plot it creates strong thematic resonance about the passage of time. So, that all gets cheapened and diluted by failing to be true to its era.

Well, the "problem" lays there. For you, the Shenhua and VF posters in S1 don't break immersion, but VF arcade does. To other people, those same posters can be off putting... I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, so there's no way to ever please everybody

It's not about subjectivity. It's actually pretty objective. They are references. The posters do not mean Virtua Fighter exists as a fighting game series in Ryo's reality. It's used more as mere iconography. This is a pretty textbook example of what's known as homage- referencing something else without incorporating it directly and literally. Again, this is a distinctly cultural thing- it's extremely common to use characters outside of their original context in Japan- in this case it's just a reference to Sega and the game's own origins as Virtua Fighter RPG. An anachronistic arcade machine, however, is more problematic because now it's directly contradicting everything meticulously established with a completely different cultural context.

I think the problem people are having with this is confusing allusion with literal representation. Like when a Bender doll appeared as a reference in a really old episode of the Simpsons, it wasn't connected to Futurama's universe via teleportation time travel to another dimension, it was just a reference.

But when the Simpsons actually crossed over with Futurama years later? Then, Bender was Bender.

And that's the kind of difference we're looking at with Shenmue. It's pretty obvious and easy to figure out whether the Saturn and VF iconography are self consciously referential, or if they are the result of time travel. They are all part of a series of self referential motifs in the game, references not only to Sega and its first party franchises, but also reference to the long history of Shenmue's own development. For example-

8 bit Saturn in Hazuki residence- reference to Shenmue development on Saturn

BERKELEY graffiti in Doubuita Alley- reference to early project code name

VF References on posters and toys- reference to both Sega franchise branding and Shenmue's conceptual development as VF RPG.

KATANA brand cigarettes- reference to the codename of the Dreamcast when Shenmue first switched development to the unreleased platform from the Saturn

What these all have in common is that they are references to things specific to the game's history, and even the only interactive object on the list, the Saturn, is very clearly depicted as a cosmetic layer for Master System/Arcade ports.



I'd love to see VF arcade cabinets in another game. But i don't want to see games in arcades from outside of 2-3 years of the era. Because that's not Shenmue- it doesn't fit the individual game or add to it if a specific period setting is a major element of the game. Any benefit from it wouldn't outweigh what's lost in its spirit of cultural authenticity.

And it should be self explanatory why a game with gameplay elements developed from VF shouldn't have VF within its gameworld as an arcade beat em up that plays exactly like the serious martial arts and gang fights the player gets into in the game. It's self evident why that is extremely bad form aesthetically. But the biggest issue is, to an educated and remotely culturally literate person, it is extremely discordant to an otherwise uniquely envisioned and executed level aesthetic to have something set before the cold war that has culture and technology from after the cold war in it.

But whatever your personal disagreement with my views is, you need to realize that your assertion of period flexibility to the extent that you push for it (32 bit console, post cold war culture) is not reflected whatsoever in the actual aesthetic employed by the designers in the first 2 games- the Saturn and the Sega iconography, as I've already explained are homage and references- not tangible objects in the game world that directly refer to technology that time traveled from the future.

There are degrees to which it is reasonable to be flexible with period accuracy. But jumping from 4 years PRIOR to the end of the cold war and the fall of the Soviet Union to WELL AFTER that? it's too much of a clash with the setting. And again, if the game didn't successfully strive to faithfully recreate an era, it wouldn't matter. If it was set closer to VF's release date by a few years, so that it was at least in the same era, it wouldn't matter.

But to make the game's current technology suddenly sit alongside something from 2 generations forward is just in absolutely horrible taste.

"There's also context. In this case, you're talking about a game releasing in 2018(?), taking place in 1988(?) that MIGHT include an arcade game from 1993. If Shenmue 3 was released in 2003 it would be a different case, VF wouldn't have that nostalgia factor associated, which i think it does now."

I don't know where you're getting this from but there has been absolutely no talk whatsoever from anyone that's actually involved with the game about putting arcade games from outside the game's era, VF or anything else. There are just a few people on forums who want it because it's a feature in Yakuza 5, and that's the lamest reason to want something put in a game ever.

And in Shenmue, it's absolutely discordant with the aesthetic of the settings, and completely redundant as a gameplay feature. The period aesthetic, atmosphere and environments all work together to create the kind of immersive, authentic and affecting experience that Shenmue is. Everything done in the game, whether you agree with me personally or not, has been done with a certain precedence, so to break that, there has to be a valid reason, and neither the game itself nor anything people say about how "cool" it is changes the approach that Shenmue has taken up to this point.

Oh and as for emulating games within games, if you're going to push the agenda that there was any intention for a functioning 32 bit saturn in 1987 and a functioning VF cabinet, you're going to have to demonstrate that this was ever their intention and that it was not just iconography.

If you're interested in thinking of games on a more cultural/philosophical level, try thinking of things in terms of simulacra-

Definition of SIMULACRUM
1
: image, representation <a reasonable simulacrum of reality — Martin Mayer>
2
: an insubstantial form or semblance of something : trace

Thinking about it in these terms, nothing in the game (or anything) is actually real. So how does a work of art evoke a sense of truth out of falsehood, and what are the ways in which it does not do this. Every game is different in this respect, and I think one of the special things about Shenmue- how it focused on this aspect in a different way and to a different degree to most other games.

Oh please don't think I'm being pretentious here- I'd cite the recent interview with the level designer where they talk about imbuing a sense of human inhabitancy and, to quote him, that feeling where you can really "smell" the environments in the game. Feel them.

I think Shenmue took an uncommonly humanistic approach to level design- extremely detail and culture oriented.

So for god's sake, keep VF and X Men VS Street Fighter the heck out of it.

[belinho]

So for god's sake, keep VF and X Men VS Street Fighter the heck out of it.

Ok.

[0rganiker]

So... Yu said calling cards wouldn't exist in that time period and yet he's including them. You Non-VF guys should be against that too, then, right?

[Wude-Tang Clan]

I thought Suzuki-san discounted any possibility of a VF game during #YouaskYu, with something to the effect of: "There were no polygon games back then."

Not really sure how I'd feel about it; doesn't really matter to me either way, and I am a huge VF player and fan since the get-go, probably the biggest on this site.

[belinho]

Let me say again that i really don't care about VF in S3.

I just don't understand how can you be ok with some stuff (saturn, VF posters, Shenhua...) but not with others (mainly VF arcade). I suppose the reaction is the same when you encounter those things in the game, something like "well, that doesn't really go well with the realism of the game". Then you move on.

Then there is the international calling card like organiker said. And what about the Sonic capsules? Does it also fit in the explanation of the Saturn being part of Shenmue, and the VF posters?

Of course VF doesn't make sense in Shenmue. I can't argue with that. What i can say is that i want a fun game, i don't want to think about the Cold War while playing Shenmue 3, and what type of arcade machines there are. In Shenmue 1&2 we had arcade games of older Suzuki's games. Do you want to have the same games in Shenmue 3? If you play the games back to back, will you really appreciate the same arcade games by the time you reach Shenmue3?

Again, i'm not asking for VF just because some fans want it. I only ACCEPT and UNDERSTAND it if YU wants to do it

[0rganiker]

Seriously, Virtual-On came out in 1995, how in the world are there toy capsules for that? I just don't understand!

[punkmanced]

@Shenmue 852:
If you don’t feel comfortable having VF in some isolated in-game arcade, then that one's on you.
There have been enough VF references & other anachronisms in past games to justify its inclusion in Shenmue 3 as an easter-egg.

As long as Ryo's able to play it on the Saturn he's been lugging around in that backpack of his, we should be fine. (Actually...following YS' logic...it shouldn't be a Saturn anymore, but a Dreamcast).

[amiga1200]

NO!
the cards will fall as they will.
putting 'faith' in anything isn't my bag.
i just learn, and apply that.
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