Shenmue feature in EDGE

[mike_sleva]

I did read the entire article, like I said, I agree with much of it. But to take literally one chapter and just criticize it to death is wrong. If I was to take Shenmue 1 on its own merits I wouldn't have even played Shenmue 2 because Shenmue 1 in no way feels like a complete story. When something relies on continuous sequels as much as Shenmue does, you really can't get the "full picture" until it's all said and done; which is something none of us can do. So to write a lookback on something that isn't even finished is dumb. Shenmue is one big story, like Lord of the Rings it must be judged as a whole. Sure you can judge each movie/book in it's own respect but you would have to mention the sequels in order to get the full context of the story. My point was that obviously if the series isn't continuing then it had it's fair share of flaws, so why bother reiterating that? It's like someone coming out and making fun of John Kerry right now; it's so unnecessary.

It's great that they scored Shenmue 1 and 2 high, that doesn't change the fact that the article in question is a hostile, mean spirited insult at a game that enough people already have a problem with. Sure it said some nice things but obviously the overall impression is a negative one when you spend four pages bashing the game and one paragraph praising it. I'm all for a critical look at the Shenmue series but let's wait till it's all done please. PS Lan Di wasn't looking for the Phoenix Mirror, as the article claims, just needed to let that out.

[Birty]

Oh, and EDGE's scoring system (which they've long maintained) - 8 (which both Shenmue and Shenmue 2 got) literally translates to excellent.

That's a good score. I have read Edge a few times, a respected magazine that I guess is not always too lenient in their scores. At least they mentioned Shenmue III .

[AzN.Homeboy]

I still can't see the freaking article, so I won't talk about the impression it leaves, but I will say the reason they probably like the English dub better is because they're English, and get boners from hearing their language. LOLOL ZING.

Just kidding.


In all seriousness, though, how on earth does the game running in an Asian language make it "un-Shenmue"? The entire game series, so far, has focused on Japan and China, along with Japanese and Chinese history/mythology, and has taken place entirely in Japan and China/Hong Kong.

[code l name]

When something relies on continuous sequels as much as Shenmue does, you really can't get the "full picture" until it's all said and done; which is something none of us can do. So to write a lookback on something that isn't even finished is dumb.

Going by your hairbrain logic you can't praise and enthuse about the game neither because we don't have the 'full story' as you say. Which the large portion of this board would thoroughly disagree with.

Mean spirited? Obviously you fail to grasp the idea of a critical review, because the large portion of this board can't stand the notion that the Shenmue games aren't perfect and do have flaws. It's not like publications have their own agenda here, especially with a dormant series like Shenmue.

In the end though, it's just other opinion and I certainly hope none of us hold other people's views in higher esteem then their own.

[Kamikaze Kenny]

Mainly to mike_sleva, but also to everyone else - I believe the article praised Shenmue quite a lot. Yes, it's critical. That's how EDGE is. It mentions the bad points, which I accept. It mentions the good points, which I accept.

Sure it said some nice things but obviously the overall impression is a negative one when you spend four pages bashing the game and one paragraph praising it.

I'm sorry, you say you read the article, and I have full faith that you did. Maybe you didn't understand the article properly if you believe that.

And why not take a critical look at Shenmue? It was shipped as a finished product. I know people who have Shenmue 1 and not 2, or Shenmue 2 and not 1. Shenmue 1 is meant as a game in itself, though yes, part of a larger narrative. As I said, this feature in EDGE (this is the third issue it's been in, since it only started in it's redesign) seems reserved only for those games that try something new, or try to reinvigorate a genre in new ways, and how they achieve what the accomplish. It's not a review.

The article does essentially state that, despite the flaws, Shenmue is a success.

[mike_sleva]

It's not the fact that they're criticizing Shenmue that offends me. I've criticized Shenmue 1 a fair bit too. On its own merits, with all the hype behind it, it's just merely mediocre. But like I said, it's 1/16 of the full game and 12/16 of that game has yet to be experienced. The article even said that nothing has been resolved as of yet and it leaves with more questions than answers. So maybe you should just wait till those questions get answered to criticize the game. But that's not what the article sets out to do, essentially its thesis is Shenmue as a videogame doesn't work (which is retarded) and they proceed to bash the reader over the head with that point. And I agree with some of what they say, but again, without mentioning the sequels it's utterly useless to talk about Shenmue.

All anyone who reads this article (and takes this magazine seriously) would come across thinking that this game sounds boring and useless and since it's not going to continue (so far) then why bother playing it? It barely mentions Shenmue 2, which is odd to me as that game was the deciding factor as to whether or not the series would continue. If they had released it when Shenmue 2 was about to be released: fine, if they had released it in 2002: fine, if they had released it just after Shenmue 1 came out: fine. But how random is this? I understand that it's a lookback at a revolutionary game. I understand that it isn't a review. I understand that EDGE doesn't have a personal agenda. I understand they are a very critical magazine. I also understand that they don't see Shenmue fit to be a videogame and that it breaks trends in videogames that ought not to be broken, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, and since that's the point of the article, I think it's pretty shit.

Shenmue is, by many yardsticks, an atrocious game. The turn-offs are many, as it appears to be inconoclastic in the worst possible way. Virtually nothing can be interacted with. It plods along at its own insular, peculiar pace. The people around you are nothing but glorified post-it notes, pointing the way to the next unskippable cutscene.

Yes there are nicer quotes, but this one crops up early enough to offend pretty much anyone who likes Shenmue as a game. Again, something like this should be written but wait till it's all done, not when it's on its deathbead.

[Kamikaze Kenny]

Valid points I suppose mike_sleva. To have that quote early enough could make people think the only thing they're doing is bashing Shenmue. To those people, I say read the whole article.

As for waiting until the Shenmue series is either complete or on its deathbed - how do we know the Shenmue series, as a whole, ISN'T on its deathbed? And if we were to wait for the series conclusion, we may never get the opportunity, or interest in the series may have waned completely.

But yes, good points. I suppose there are two groups of people to this - people who like the article as they like a critical look at Shenmue, or people who don't because they think it's too early or not done with reference to any sequels.

[AzN.Homeboy]

So I finally got to read the article. And, it's stupid. They say 50 negative things about Shenmue, some of which are even actually positives and testaments to the game, and list one or two positives. They call it a "bad videogame", so what's a good videogame? GTA? Ninja Gaiden? Why? Because you get to run around and kill people instead of talking to them to figure out where to go?

Basically they call the game an unplayable mess, because you actually have to walk around and talk to people in order to progress.

Oh, and so the reason they feel that non-English dubs are un-Shenmue is because they basically relate Shenmue with bad games. The uncommendable jobs the voice actors do fits Shenmue for them, because they feel Shenmue to be a terrible game and so having a good dub is just SO WRONG. I mean, seriously. Read that part and that's what they're saying.

Reading that article makes me want to cry while also making me want to laugh. Cry, because the world still has people that ignorant and that stupid who take something as whole and complete as Shenmue and try to tear apart every little thing that they can. Yes, I know Shenmue has a few shares of flaws, but nothing nearly as big as they spend 4+ whole pages whining about. I think there were maybe 4 or 5 sentences in that entire article that actually noted why Shenmue was a GOOD game. Also, they made ignorant mistakes in the articles. Like, how your "single objective" of taking revenge has not yet been completed, "despite" the sequel. Maybe they should have noted that Shenmue actually has a long and planned story arc. Or how they said that the first-person looking around/locking on/observing items view was the "F.R.E.E." mode, not the actual entire game.

And I want to laugh BECAUSE those guys are so ignorant and stupid. Because they can't appreciate Shenmue the way that I can, because I don't look at every single possible miniscule singular flaw and bitch about it like a 4 year old being whacked with a hammer. If they don't WANT enjoy Shenmue, then let them not. I'll be laughing.

[Silas]

Ok, well the first thing is everybody needs to grow up. Edge is a magazine for grown-ups and writes about gaming in a totally adult manner. It's not about pleasing the fanboys, and in this case it's about providing a serious overview from all angles of one of the quirkiest outpourings from that industry. If you'll notice from the game's publication date, it's just over 5 years old. The fact that Edge devoted 6 pages to a five year old game is actually a considerable tribute, not a denigration. Edge are not in the business of highlighting old games for total blitzing just for the hell of it. If Edge have written about Shenmue, it's because Shenmue is important.

It's not the fact that they're criticizing Shenmue that offends me. I've criticized Shenmue 1 a fair bit too. On its own merits, with all the hype behind it, it's just merely mediocre. But like I said, it's 1/16 of the full game and 12/16 of that game has yet to be experienced.

One of the reasons for their having published an article like this is to highlight for those of us who might be clinging onto desparate hopes that it just isnt' going to happen that way. The 16 Chapter concept for the Shenmue saga is part of the hubris that they criticise in Sega and Yu Suzuki, and I think it's justified. At the end, they call for a final, valedictory episode so that Lan Di can finish up punished, but they are not pretending, and neither should you pretend, that the full original concept of Shenmue will ever occur.

The article even said that nothing has been resolved as of yet and it leaves with more questions than answers. So maybe you should just wait till those questions get answered to criticize the game.

As I pointed out, the game has just passed its fifth anniversary, with no further console episode announced - can they wait forever? On the other hand, it's as good a time as any to be talking about it, since nothing has happened in over three years.

But that's not what the article sets out to do, essentially its thesis is Shenmue as a videogame doesn't work (which is retarded) and they proceed to bash the reader over the head with that point. And I agree with some of what they say, but again, without mentioning the sequels it's utterly useless to talk about Shenmue.

I disagree - first of all, in their criticisms of Shenmue, they are simply highlighting the bad points which many players, both fan and anti, have raised over the years. And after having talked about the bad points, they tell you the truth - that all the elements that go into the game ultimately overshadow the supposed bad points of the slow pace and bad voice acting - that it is all essential, and it emphasises how utterly unique Shenmue is. (Which for me is one of the reasons I'm here.) As to writing only about the first game without covering the sequel extensively, that's the choice of the writer and it's perfectly valid. All the hype generated by Sega regarding the release of Shenmue and the fulfillment or disappointment engendered by that when the game was played, is specific to the first game, not the second. I will say that I disagree with the implication that very little happens in the sequel (plot wise), but their overall decision not to really cover Shenmue II is valid as far as I can see.

All anyone who reads this article (and takes this magazine seriously) would come across thinking that this game sounds boring and useless and since it's not going to continue (so far) then why bother playing it? It barely mentions Shenmue 2, which is odd to me as that game was the deciding factor as to whether or not the series would continue. If they had released it when Shenmue 2 was about to be released: fine, if they had released it in 2002: fine, if they had released it just after Shenmue 1 came out: fine. But how random is this? I understand that it's a lookback at a revolutionary game. I understand that it isn't a review. I understand that EDGE doesn't have a personal agenda. I understand they are a very critical magazine. I also understand that they don't see Shenmue fit to be a videogame and that it breaks trends in videogames that ought not to be broken, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, and since that's the point of the article, I think it's pretty shit.

Well if you understand all those points, I don't understand your question. Whatever else, the article is not designed to encourage anyone to buy and play the game or its sequel - which would be an utterly foolish thing to do since it's a long out-of-print game for a defunct console! Shenmue I (so far) is part of video game history, and it is on that basis that the article has been written and published.

Shenmue is, by many yardsticks, an atrocious game. The turn-offs are many, as it appears to be inconoclastic in the worst possible way. Virtually nothing can be interacted with. It plods along at its own insular, peculiar pace. The people around you are nothing but glorified post-it notes, pointing the way to the next unskippable cutscene.

Yes there are nicer quotes, but this one crops up early enough to offend pretty much anyone who likes Shenmue as a game. Again, something like this should be written but wait till it's all done, not when it's on its deathbead.

But how long should they wait? Ten years? Fifty?

The one major downside of the article (which actually leads me to suspect that it was actually composed prior to August) is that no mention whatsoever is made of Shenmue Online. It may be that it was not known when it was written, or it may be that Edge consider SO to be so far out of the Shenmue norm that it isn't worth considering in the same article, when they're talking about all the stuff that made and continues to make Shenmue unique.

So to summarise, they mention all the bad stuff, none of which has not been said by gamers and game professionals at some points, in order to pay tribute to Yu Suzuki's magnificent achievement. I think it's very well written, it makes a lot of very good points and has a lot of insight both into Shenmue and into the Sega that produced Shenmue all those years ago. And to criticise the article on the grounds that it won't encourage new players to try it out, well that's foolish imv. The lifecycle is well past the point where that need be a consideration for any magazine article about Shenmue - and in any case, I disagree. No matter how much it says that Shenmue is "atrocious", it is certainly written in such a way as to intrigue and interest the seriously interested game player who may have heard a lot about Shenmue but not got an in depth analysis. Remember the market that Edge aims at: game makers as well as players, and a generally adult age group.

[mike_sleva]

The main reason I am so adamant that they mention the sequel(s) is that the original Shenmue, as anyone with even a modest knowledge of the series knows, was supposed to contain chapters 1-4. Somewhere down the production line for whatever reason (presumably to better cover the costs of production) the game was split into two. Now EDGE, or any other publication has every right to criticize Shenmue 1 as a complete game if they so desire. But to do that is to miss the point (and more suited to a review of the game than a historical analysis of one of the most important games ever released). Of course SEGA released Shenmue 1 as a finished game, but it also had numerous sequels in mind; so how should the game be viewed? In installments, or as a whole? For an article that emphasizes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, it seems stupid to blatantly ignore the fact that this game is much bigger than chapter 1 would lead you to believe. They also view the story in a similarly ignorant way, summarizing it in Ryo's "singular objective" of exacting revenge upon Lan Di. That's right, Yu Suzuki wrote 16 chapters, 4 of which span some 30 hours, about one objective.

I'm sure the folks at EDGE have a firm grasp of the Shenmue story, although you wouldn't know it from the article (Lan Di wasn't searching for the Phoenix Mirror, Lan Di becomes more sympathetic in Shenmue 2, Ryo clearly has more than one objective etc..) and to show such ignorance while at the same time criticizing the game (ALOT) makes the article seem jeuvenille instead of mature. They insult essentially every aspect of the actual gameplay and while the article does end on a positive note, the overall image it paints is a negative one. Like I said, Shenmue did not live up to the hype that preceeded it, and if this is how they truly feel about the game, then there's no way it would deserve an 8/10. The article undermines Shenmue and videogaming in general by saying that Shenmue's ideals are too much for this industry to depict, which is wrong. For an article that wants to get the full picture, they must first prove that they have an understanding of what the fuck they're talking about, and set up the article in such a way that they understand the massive development that was the Shenmue project (not just in dollar signs); which this article does not.

[AzN.Homeboy]

If I were to summarize my problems with that article into one sentence, it would be this:

They take 90% of what was GREAT about Shenmue and make it out as terrible, and the other 10% they barely even acknowledge.

[harlekin]

today i bought the recent issue of edge magazine and as most of you, i too was delighted to see shenmue once again featured in a magazine, especially as so much time has passed since its release and still it was adressed as something special, worth much more than just a look from a retro perspective kind of view.

but when i read the article there was a strong feeling of an author trying to justify his seemingly objective point of view or maybe even ranking, with whatever possible means.

if today, you've seen a movie, you still have the possibility to say, that you liked it, that it touched you, or even that you thought it was crappy, but maybe fun, entertaining.
most videogame journalists seem to have forgotten what entertainment actually stands for. this article for me is evidence, that sometimes you should not try to rip something apart in order to analyze it properly, sometimes, the whole thing is just more than the sum of its parts.

surely you can say, that shenmue is a slow paced adventure in which most character are not much more than simple "post it notes", but as soon as you come to interpret those facts, you have to face opinions that do not agree with what you said, or even people that accuse you of having not entirely understood what you are writing over.

instead of just admiting, that shenmue wasn't the perfect game, i'll take the rocky road and try to explain, why it was just that.

it is adressed that the character design of ryo is quite boring in comparison to the others he meets along the road, well maybe that was intentional. and maybe the whole shenmue story at heart isn't about finding lan di and revenging the death of your father. actually ryo is the only one aiming for that goal. what if its all about the jouney, the people he meets, finding the true cause why he can't get over the dead of his father.

maybe im a bit vague too and maybe im a bit too into film dramaturgy, but i've to say, that a maijor plot change on the cause why ryo is chasing lan-di has ist allready emerging and should take place very soon in the further development of the story.

too few side quests i read in between the lines, well it fits perfectly with the state our main character is in.

lack of exploring: hell, thank am2 for that! it might be a videogame paradigma, that interactivity is allway linked to exploration of the silliest kinds of environment you might imagine. but shenmue is not following this part. you can't go into everybodys home and show of, and the game benefits from that, its one way of letting you identify more deeply with the world and the main character. in shenmue i never had the kind of thought in my mind, that tells me "gosh, i've never done this in real live" but almost constantly this "i wish, i would have done this before" concept.

you didn't like the arcade? well, than distract yourself in other ways, or if you can't take the time in between the events, as "loading screens" or to do something elese while the game is running. sure you'd miss much of the stuff, that lets you identify with the gaming world, but so what? anything is better, that simply skipping the time, like you could in sm2.

i almost never visited the arcade, and still wasn't bored by the waiting for the next thing to happen, but that was just me, im sure everybody else had his own rituals on letting the time pass by.

and so on and on...

shenmue in my opionion was one of the few game in the near past, that could tie the player to it, without offering the next adrenaline kick, after the already passed amount of action sequences. call it a lack of game design, or call it a step into an other direction.

maybe the real bequeathal of shenmue was that it was something so different, that time was not even ready when it aproached, but isn't even yet.

EA thinks, that the major benefit of the "power" of the next generation consoles will be the ability to use facial animations, that could express emotions, so the player doesnt have to "imagine" how hes currently feeling, well if you ask me, there is only one game that you could look up upon when it comes to realy emotional videogame moments, beside those adrenalin soaked ones.

in the article there is asked if yu and his team had a bit too much creative freedom to produce this game and my answer to that is a desperate NO!

harlekin

[threeblades]

n the article there is asked if yu and his team had a bit too much creative freedom to produce this game and my answer to that is a desperate NO!

True. I didn't read the artictle and I don't think I will. But I have to say that even when I look at the game objectively, it is simply perfect. Not perfect because nothing can be improved: that's not the case, there's always something to improve (laoding times, etc). Perfect because it has no flaws. No flaws AT ALL. The things that "could be improved" are simply not bad enough to even be considered bad.

I have never ever found a "boring" moment in the game. It sucks me into it's little world and never lets me go, because it's so perfect and makes me want to beleive in it. It's the only game that I actually do care for the characters. I have real feelings for them. No other game ever did that to me.
In nearly 5 years, I have played it and replayed it again and again, and I STILL LOOK FORWARD TO THE NEXT GAME that I'll start.

And by the way, the 16 chapters concept was genius, after such endings, how could someone NOT be begging to play the next part. They are not true gamers. It made me DREAM about playing the next part almost everytime I saw the ending of shenmue.

One last thing: Shenmue1 was supposed to be 6 chapters long before it was split, not just 4 (although they never intended to show the boat chapter). Shenmue2 ends after (or during?) chapter 6.

[mike_sleva]

Shenmue 2 ends either during or at the end of chapter 4. That's why in Ryo's notebook, he writes a little number underneath each new chapter. Guilin is chapter 4 of the story and Shenmue 1 was supposed to span all the way to Guilin (since so much of the beta footage shows all the way thru Shenmue 2) and something tells me that the game would have benefitted from it.

[threeblades]

Sorry but no, Shenmue 2 ends at chapter 6. There is one chapter on the boat that was chapter 2. They skipped it. Chapter 3 and 4 are in abredeen. Chapter 5 is kowloon and 6 is guilin.

http://www.planetxbox.com/shenmuedojo/s ... view.shtml


So shenmue 3 would start at chapter 7.